What does the WordPress Executive Director do?

[00:00:00] Josepha: You say that’s the easiest question, but like anyone who has spent any time with me knows that I also spend a lot of time, like, considering, like what, what, what are my, what am I doing? What, what purpose do I bring to the world? Who am I when I’m not trying to accomplish things? Like, yeah, it’s easy, but it’s not easy.

[00:00:17] So yeah. I show stuff. I Hayden jumbo, C a WordPress projects, executive director since 2019. So I’m starting my what third year of it is that right? Yeah. Starting my third year of it, time flies. 

[00:00:29] Matt: That’s 30 years in COVID years, by the way. 

[00:00:32] Josepha: ain’t that true? Isn’t that true? And before I did this, I actually was as my Twitter bio suggests very much into.

[00:00:43] Digital literacy and making sure that that communities were safe and sound, because I think that communities are the foundation of everything that we try to do in the world. And so, yeah, that’s me.

[00:00:53] Matt: There’s a lot of folks who think of community as well. It’s a big marketing buzzword for sure. Right. Everyone who has a product company wants a community. But they are looking at community in probably a very lesser form definition in a silo and something to just kind of prop up either their brand or product.

[00:01:12] Maybe get some feedback and get really interested. Customers. Community is a whole different ball game and scale at your level. Give us a sense of just like the daily routine. One has to go through to manage what you have to manage. 

[00:01:29] Josepha: Gosh, from a community aspect or just from like me as a 

[00:01:33] Matt: you wake up and you’re and you look at your wall-to-wall meetings. Cause I, I imagine largely that’s what you’re doing is meeting talking to people, fusing ideas, together, shaking hands, dealing with folks, maybe crying and laughing and arguing. How do you do it? 

[00:01:50] Josepha: I’ll tell you, number one, that only about a quarter of my time, these. Is spent in meetings, which is really different from, from how it used to be. I used to spend about 60% of my time in meetings. And that was really hard just cause when you’re in a meeting, you really have to stay present to, to really support the people that you’re there with.

[00:02:09] And, and also to really get that work done and be as fruitful as you can with it. And so about, about a quarter of my time now is in meetings. And actually like I’ve got, I’ve got a number of hats obviously, cause I’m the executive director of the WordPress project, but I also lead the source practice at automatic.

[00:02:29] And so there’s a lot going on there. And the best way that I have to manage it at the moment is to just kind of set focus intentions for my day. Like I used to have a day where I just worked on automatic things or when I just worked on community things. And like that’s still documented out in the world, like the, the themes that I have for each day, so that like, if people had had to work with a deadline, they knew what.

[00:02:55] Going to probably get to on various days so that they could time their information. To [00:03:00] me, it was super useful when I didn’t have quite as big a job as I have now. But now I kind of have a day where I focus on meetings. I have a day where I focus on the strategy. I try to make sure that if I have any community things that I’m blocking, I try to get those accomplished, like before the big meetings, which generally is like Wednesdays and Thursdays.

[00:03:19] So try to get and get everybody the information that they need to keep moving on time. But I actually start basically every day with about 30 minutes of mindfulness. Just no meetings, no slack open, no anything else. And just making sure that I understand what my goals are for the day, what my tasks tend to beat for the day.

[00:03:41] And then I end every day with about 30 minutes of what I like to call my ta-da list instead of a to-do list, things that I got done and that I need to get done tomorrow.

[00:03:51] Matt: Little positive affirmation to end the and the day you say that the open source practice is sort of a different approach. Maybe something that you wrangle are managed differently. Can you give us give the listener a sense of what that might be 

[00:04:04] Josepha: At automatic or just generally do I approach open-source differently? 

[00:04:07] Matt: You mentioned that you, that you either manage or work on the open source practice of WordPress is that something different than the, than the day-to-day role of the executive director? 

[00:04:17] Josepha: Huh. Yes and no. So on the one hand I do, we technically are referred to as a division inside automatic. It’s the open source group division. And I just, I don’t know, saying division seems very clinical and. Very divisive, like splitting things into when maybe we, we need to do a bit less of that right now.

[00:04:38] And so when I refer to it as open-source practice, it’s a little bit, because I’m trying to make it clear that it’s like an ongoing thing that we work on an ongoing thing that we do, but also to identify that it is that yeah, we do. We kind of approach it differently. So open source as a practice rather than open source as just a general methodology, I think has a wider application than just software or adjust your product.

[00:05:04] I think that open source, many of those 19 lessons of open source that exists out there could be seen as just like core intentions for how to accomplish things. And when you move it away from just like, this is a core directive for how to build software and instead think of it as this open source methodology that you can use to coordinate an.

[00:05:30] I think it makes a big difference to how you accomplish things in open-source projects. And so, yes, that’s, I wouldn’t say it’s different from my work as the executive director, but I do know that people don’t necessarily identify that work. 

[00:05:44] Matt: Right. How big is that division? 

[00:05:46] Josepha: that particular division is just over a hundred people at this point.

[00:05:50] And then we also have we, the WordPress project also have the five for the future contributors who work with me and that’s a little lighter [00:06:00] touch. They get about a ping or two a week from me just asking what I can help them work through. And just checking in with them generally. And there’s probably like 20, 25, maybe 50, if we’re generous outside of automatic that are doing that.

[00:06:16] So yeah.

[00:06:16] Matt: And do the core contributors that contribute to WordPress open source, open source wars, WordPress from automatic. Do they fall under that division or can folks be from any division in, at automatic to contribute? 

[00:06:28] Josepha: Yeah. Most of them do a lineup in this division, but there are also because so many of automatics products are, are part of the WordPress ecosystem. There are also plenty of people that are just in automatic as a whole that are contributing to core. So,

[00:06:43] Matt: And if I could just illustrate that from a non not automatic company, this could be something like a GoDaddy might have a open source division 

[00:06:53] Josepha: Right.

[00:06:54] Matt: and their objectives or mission would be to give back to open source. And they would say, Hey, let’s give back a little bit to WordPress. Let’s give a little bit to whatever Joomla or PHP or something else.

[00:07:06] That’s open source. You’d have this collective that, that their mission is to, Hey, we’re part of this bigger company, the bigger company, isn’t all about open source and we’re missioned to go out and contribute to open source. 

[00:07:18] Josepha: Exactly. Right. So blue host has a group like that. Goat GoDaddy does have a group like that. Google also Yoast all those, all those folks in there, others as well. I’m not, I’m not intentionally leaving other people out. It’s just that there are probably like a hundred different companies and I will not be able to just rattle them all off that way, 

[00:07:38] Matt: Eh speaking of GoDaddy, looking at con core contributors I don’t have the pie chart in front of me. In fact, it wasn’t even a pie chart, but there were lots of circles. with automatic representing the largest piece. If you were to give advice to other companies to, I don’t know, spin up divisions, give more spin up open-source divisions, give back more to whether it be WordPress or another division.

[00:08:00] Are there one or two, like key things. If I want to form an open-source division or to contribute more, what’s the best step forward for an organization? To either measure it or approach it to rally people around it. Do you have like one or two things that you look to as a north star? 

[00:08:20] Josepha: Yeah. So, firstly, if you’re, if you are thinking about creating an open source team, who’s either planning to give back to WordPress or just planning to give back to open source in general. There is actually a five for the future white paper that exists to just like essentially take to your, your corporate entity that says, like, this is what it means to give back to this product that has given to us.

[00:08:45] And it’s, I think on wordpress.org/five, I think there’s a link to it right there. But if not, We’ll get it done. 

[00:08:53] Matt: sure. 

[00:08:53] Josepha: And, and that in the end does direct you kind of, to me to make sure that you have all of the information about [00:09:00] the open source philosophies that we’re working with in the WordPress project.

[00:09:03] And also make sure that that, that we all kind of understand what the goals of the WordPress project are at the moment. And so there is kind of just like a kickoff call with me to see if everyone agrees, it’s like any, any relationship that you’re entering into, everyone should understand what we’re working with first and then make that choice together.

[00:09:20] So that’s one thing that anyone can take a look at also if. As an employer or just as yourself, want to contribute from like a five for the future pledging perspective, but don’t necessarily have the time or resources to commit like a whole team’s worth. There is actually a contributor training series that you can go through that gives you the basics of like how WordPress does open source, how open source functions in software, and also covers things like how we make decisions in WordPress, all of that stuff.

[00:09:54] I believe that’s on wordpress.org/contributor, hyphen training or something like that. We can find the link for your show notes, but yeah, those are both excellent ways to just like take stock of what that kind of contribution tends to look like. And see if it’s a good fit.

[00:10:11] Matt: I I’d imagine that part of your role or part of your efforts are to knock on the doors of, of big businesses that might be leveraging WordPress and saying, Hey, I think you can donate another person or two or 20 to the cause. Do what, what, what is that like? Are those efforts fruitful for you or are there certain strategies you try to put in place before you knock on the door of, I don’t know.

[00:10:35] I use GoDaddy just because it’s the top of mind Right. now, but I’ll go daddy or Bluehost or whomever

[00:10:39] Josepha: Right. Yes. 

[00:10:40] Matt: government. 

[00:10:42] Josepha: the government, 

[00:10:43] Matt: Right. 

[00:10:43] Josepha: I have never knocked on the door of the government to ask them to contribute 

[00:10:46] Matt: me know when you find that door, which door is it? I don’t know. Neo find another one.

[00:10:51] Josepha: find another door. Yeah, no. So, yes, there is general. I don’t, I call it fundraising just because I understand that like, there are. Four-ish different economies in the WordPress ecosystem and not all of them are about money. A lot of them are about time and, and other things. But so yeah, I do that outreach every year for the most part.

[00:11:14] And actually met does that as well. So Matt often we’ll start with like the highest decision-making levels. Cause you, you do kind of have to get some buy-in on that. Not, not this Matt, dear readers other Matt, Matt Mullenweg what was I saying? Yeah, he frequently will start at like the CEO levels of having those conversations and then they move to me to kind of have a better understanding of what it looks like, what it could look like, what we want it to look like, all of that stuff.

[00:11:42] As far as like, do we, do we, do I do anything to like prepare companies for that? Not really. The fight for the future program has been an excellent experiment and has been growing for years. And, and I don’t know that I have ever [00:12:00] felt the need to like prime prime, anyone for the ask of like, do you have anyone who can help us with these security patches?

[00:12:09] Do you have anyone who can help us with these design issues that we have? Like, I’ve never felt the need to do it necessarily. But that doesn’t mean it’s not happening. As I mentioned, like Matt does that also, he does that outreach as well. And so if there’s priming for that call from that, that outreach from me, it’s probably happening there.

[00:12:27] Matt: Forgive my not understanding fully of how the inner workings of automatic works, but from executive directors that I’ve worked with in my local community, a lot of them are for nonprofits and a lot of them are, are raising money and that’s a whole large part of their job.

[00:12:44] Do you do that at all for any degree of the work for the WordPress foundation or is that completely separate? Not even in your purview. 

[00:12:52] Josepha: I used to do that. Yeah. is not in my purview anymore. We actually have some community folks that really have done excellent work to keep that program moving all of this, the global sponsorship programs. They do that work these days. I did use to, but, but not now. 

[00:13:09] Matt: Okay. Fantastic. And speaking of the, of the foundation word camps coming back. Question, mark. We just had word camp us last year. And now I think Birmingham is next. If I, if I have that correct. Is there other others coming? Is that something that you’re looking forward to proceeding cautiously with?

[00:13:32] Again, I know there was something on the Tavern about no or little to no masks at the last camp. A lot of folks worried about it. What’s your prediction or what’s your outlook on local meetups or local camps? Sorry, 

[00:13:45] Josepha: So word camp, U S actually was, was a virtual this year where it can’t one state of the word 

[00:13:50] Matt: state of the word, sorry. Yep. It felt like a word camp because everyone Was. celebrating it. 

[00:13:55] Josepha: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was an excellent experiment and it actually was not our first in-person event. There was a word camp in severe. I want to say that that weekend right before state of the word, that was our first one back.

[00:14:09] And then yes, we’ve got Birmingham on the calendar. We have WordCamp Europe on the calendar as an in-person event. And we have word camp us 20, 22 on the calendar as, as an in-person event. Cautiously with cautious optimism. Is that a thing I can say? We’re proceeding forward with cautious optimism about it.

[00:14:27] Matt: in San Diego was cautious. Optimism. 

[00:14:31] Josepha: Excellent. I’ll let them know. Yeah, like. I have been, I’ve been talking to people about this a lot this week. So much of the information that we get from, from everyday users of WordPress, about what they love and what they don’t love, what they need and what they want with the software comes from those events and not having them has certainly been very difficult for the community as a whole, to, to keep on [00:15:00] top of their own resilience.

[00:15:01] But, but the community of contributors, as it relates to the support of the community of users, like it really, it’s very clear to me that all of our contributors feel a little bit, I don’t want to say hamstrung, but like they don’t have the same touch points that they used to have to make the decisions that we all have to make.

[00:15:22] And so. That’s the optimistic side. Like I’m optimistic that we can get back to in-person events so that we can have that, that high value information from our users of the CMS more and, and faster and better. And the cautious side is of course, that everything is changing with this from week to week.

[00:15:42] At this point, like for a while, it was month to month, things were changing and now it’s week to week, things are changing and, and I never want to put people at undue risk and so am prepared to make the best call that we can make in the moment. And as things move as quickly as they are. It has made it more difficult when things were just kind of progressing on a month to month scale, you had time to, to cancel things or to move them or, or whatever you had to do.

[00:16:15] But in the case of Omicron that moved so quickly that, that there was a little bit of blind sightedness happening on it. So 

[00:16:24] Matt: is 

[00:16:24] Josepha: I don’t know if I’ve answered your question.

[00:16:26] Matt: no that you have, or you’ve let us to at least maybe the next question. or the maybe just helping me define a better question. Is is there more stress on the local volunteers to raise more? Because one, there might not be enough ticket sales for enough people to maybe businesses have retracted from sponsoring camps in three.

[00:16:50] I think that there’s less money at hand, right? To, to Dole out to word camps in the fund, for lack of a better phrase. 

[00:16:57] Josepha: in the fund. Yeah. So, That’s such a complicated question. We, the, so the, the WordPress community support entity has been providing still a good portion of, of the infrastructure that people need in order to organize a WordPress event. And as far as like getting fiscal sponsorship, getting financial sponsorship from local entities, I am sure that it is more stressful, but I don’t know that, that we, as like the stewards of this community have said, like, you have to find more local sponsorship because we cannot commit to as much global sponsorship.

[00:17:40] I don’t, I don’t recall that happening with any of the events that we’ve seen lately. 

[00:17:46] Matt: got it. Got it. Let’s let’s shift gears back to to WordPress to Gutenberg we think back well, we have WordPress 5.9 in 19 ish, 19 [00:18:00] ish days. Right? 

[00:18:00] Josepha: no one be scared. That’s great.

[00:18:02] Matt: Thinking back three and a half years ago, whenever Gutenberg was announced, there was mass chaos, massive stereo. My God, we’ve got this Gutenberg thing.

[00:18:10] What is it? Don’t want it everyone up in arms about it. I, for one while maybe I didn’t enjoy the way it rolled out and the way it was communicated as a non-developer. Yeah.

[00:18:22] And when people started using it, I was like, this is, this is, this is just software. It’s going to get better. I think here we are three and a half years later, it’s a much different product.

[00:18:32] It’s much more refined from obviously when it started. Cause it’s been three and a half years. Although 

[00:18:37] Josepha: you’ve been working on it in the background.

[00:18:39] Matt: Yeah. if you were, if you were, if you were in the early beta access, you were, you were playing with it. If you knew how to download it from GitHub

[00:18:46] Josepha: Those fancy people. 

[00:18:48] Matt: Those fancy people.

[00:18:49] I don’t even know above my pay grade.

[00:18:50] Although I still struggled to drag some blocks in between columns. Sometimes that’s a little bit frustrating, but do you think the the time that you think it’ll take the same amount of time basically is what I’m getting at for full site editing to mature and to be adopted? Or do you think this is going to be fast paced because now we’ve kind of experienced Gutenberg. 

[00:19:08] Josepha: My short answer is I do not think it’s going to take as long and I’m going to give you a long answer now. So on the one hand, I think it’s true that people are now a bit more bought in. Like our users are quite a bit more bought in on on this. Change than they were in 5.0, there’s, there’s a reason for them to trust that it’s the right direction.

[00:19:29] We have consistently been showing that ever since 5.0, came out and so like, yeah, I think that on the one hand, there’s a lot more willingness in public sentiment and public grace that we have at the moment. And so from that aspect, I think that that we’re in a much better position than we were when we were merging things in 5.0, but also between 5.0.

[00:19:50] And now we have actually heard and by we I’ll just be super clear. I have heard so much that it’s not necessarily the change that upset people. It was how we made the change. And I totally understand that people felt left out. They felt like it was forging ahead without them, like, there was no way they could keep up with it.

[00:20:10] And I, and I understand that it like it’s the Gutenberg project was and is moving along a lot faster. Then WordPress core moves along from the, from the standpoint of like how frequently they have releases. So releases every two weeks is very different from releases every four months. And so having heard from so many people in so many different areas of the project, that, that it was the way that we did it.

[00:20:37] That was so upsetting. Between 5.0, and now we actually have done together a lot of work to change the way that we talk about it. And so there are a lot more consistent updates from the folks who are working consistently within the core Gutenberg spaces of things, including stuff like our performance metrics that we are [00:21:00] gauging all of the features that we’re planning, the features that did get in there.

[00:21:03] And the last two weeks, like we’re just communicating more in that space, but also we have really re-invigorated the testing area and the triage practice, both of those practices across the WordPress EcoSys. And created a number of different places for anyone to get this kind of information and sponsored a number of different spaces, where users and developers and agency owners and, and decision makers, technical, or not have been able to get better information about what they need to know about the software.

[00:21:37] And so when was 5.0 at the end of 2018? Yeah. So. Yeah. Since 2018, I would say that there are probably four or five really big projects that have helped us to move past that whole, like it’s the way you did it. Like we figured out the ways that we did it, that made people mad and we’ve made changes to fix them.

[00:21:59] They’re four or five large scale things that you can see, but also a lot of just small individual things that each team or any contributor does to make that whole process a little less scary, a little more tidy, little easier to see everything that we’re doing on learn right now with trying to get more and more workshops and courses and lessons out for people like, yeah, we’ve done a lot of work based on the feedback that I got.

[00:22:24] I did a six month listening tour after 5.0, to hear how mad 

[00:22:29] Matt: That was. said with a big site. 

[00:22:31] Josepha: Yeah, it was, it was hard. I it’s like a listening tour is hard anyway, but I spent six months going to the events with people who were the maddest at WordPress and at me and at Matt and, and did nothing, but like tell me how much you hate this.

[00:22:50] And that’s all I wanted to hear it. I didn’t have reasons or explanations or excuses for anything like their feelings of anger were because they felt like we hadn’t heard them. And so I was showing up to hear them and, and in that six months time, that is when I identified, these are the things we need to fix in the future.

[00:23:10] And we have spent years fixing them and I’m very proud of that work, so. 

[00:23:13] Matt: It’s a perfect segue to a couple other questions. Let’s get the pitchforks and the torches out folks. No, I’m just kidding. Surprise. You’re on a game show. Have you seen running, man? No, I’m just kidding. 

[00:23:20] Josepha: No.

[00:23:21] Matt: On the listening tour I’m sure you heard things like, Oh, what we’re doing here is we’re just competing against Squarespace and Wix.

[00:23:28] Why do we want to, this is, I’m sure you’ve heard that. Right. We’re Prestos wants to compete against Squarespace and Wix. My response is duh 

[00:23:36] Josepha: of 

[00:23:36] Matt: duh. Yes, I do. Like, I want to compete against Squarespace and Wix so that we can, because I want WordPress to survive. Do you think that did one, did you hear that sentiment two, do.

[00:23:48] you think that’s kind of going away and feeling like, Yeah.

[00:23:50] actually we do want to compete against them to, to win. 

[00:23:53] Josepha: I definitely heard it a lot and I hear it a lot even now. There are, there are two sides to that [00:24:00] conversation. Cause sometimes people are like, you’re competing against these things that are so tiny, why bother. And sometimes it’s, you’re competing against something that is not the group of, that’s not catering to the group of people that WordPress wants to cater to.

[00:24:14] And so like, there are two different takes on that particular argument and I see both sides of it. But also like, technology always, you have to stay relevant and you have to move fast enough to be if, if not a competitor to a tiny thing that exists now. Cause like, sure, it’s not a threat if it’s 1% of usage across the web.

[00:24:36] But, but there is something to be said for self disruption in that way, like I like this is my favorite example to use. So like when the iPad came out and there were just. Tablets everywhere. And the iPad mini came out and everyone was like, there’s no point in having an iPad mini, we do not know why apple is doing this.

[00:24:56] This is the most useless thing. Like people were like, why are you even bothering? No one wants this one. Plenty of people wanted it. And to taking the opportunity to, to, to disrupt what’s happening in your own ecosystem before other people can show up and, and do that disruption to you, like that’s smart.

[00:25:18] That’s a good idea. And so I do know that Gutenberg has been a really disruptive change and that for a lot of people, it also has been a breaking change. Even if it’s not like breaking websites or breaking the code or breaking your dashboard, a broken workflow is still a breaking change for you.

[00:25:35] And like, that is why Gutenberg is, is as a project being done over so many years. Right. If, if you feel like asking me about, about the reason that that was the right call, I would tell you, but most people don’t care. But yeah, like moving fast enough to stay relevant, slow enough to bring people with you where you can is so smart and not only for the project, but for the people who rely on the project to have better lives.

[00:26:05] So,

[00:26:06] Matt: True or false. This is this is not about open source WordPress, but this is about automatic. And I would say that about true or false, the challenge true or false in your opinion 

[00:26:14] Josepha: We’re building some caveats in here. I like it.

[00:26:17] Matt: I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna like put you too much on the spot, but you have walls. Your opinion.

[00:26:22] The challenge for automatic is on innovation and pushing the software forward and fricking everything. Woo commerce, Gutenberg, wordpress.org, jet pack. The challenges still not enough people I’d imagine to, to help produce push code to, to improve everything across the board. 

[00:26:42] Josepha: you threw so many pieces in there that I cannot give a true false cause that’s probably true for some and less true for others would be my guests right now. 

[00:26:50] Matt: let’s talk about, let’s say Gutenberg true or false, not enough people to, to really refine the whole thing. Fast enough, 

[00:26:59] Josepha: I don’t know if you [00:27:00] can hear my stomach growling. Cause like my microphone is right down by my stomach. I apologize if you can, like, I don’t have a monster in the room. It’s 

[00:27:06] Matt: your, your stomach. cannot answer the question. 

[00:27:10] Josepha: It tried real hard. It had so many things to say. Yeah. So for gluten, so you’re asking true false for gluten. Is the limiting factor that we don’t have enough people.

[00:27:18] Matt: Let me frame some context around it. When I interviewed Matt when I interviewed Matt back in January, 2021

[00:27:24] There’s just, there’s so much on the plate for automatic in terms of.com jet pack, VU, commerce, which is just a sleeping sleeping giant we don’t have anything close to a WooCommerce Shopify yet. And I look at automatic and I say the biggest problem for Matt right now is just, there’s just not, he can’t hire fast enough to, to iterate and develop these products. There’s just. It’s just impossible for somebody to hire this many folks and get them up to speed to push these products.

[00:27:53] I feel the same for Gutenberg. And I guess the open source answer is yeah.

[00:27:58] more, maybe more people should step up or more brands and organizations that have the money hosting companies should step up to to contribute to this right. To refine the product. Like I wanna be able to drag my block in between three columns without me losing my mind. 

[00:28:14] Josepha: Oh man, I have a very complicated false for you. I know. So, okay. So there are a lot of people contributing to Gutenberg and, and while we can always use more people contributing that we can not contest there is actually a different limiting factor. That’s not necessarily about developers. And so.

[00:28:37] I’ll just get real clear. So I don’t, I don’t know that other people agree with me about this and, and that’s their prerogative. But as someone who is looking across our entire ecosystem across our entire project from a substance, a pretty high level, with a huge number of, of data points that are coming to me from, from the community, I can say with pretty high confidence that some of the more pressing limiting factors are things like we don’t have enough.

[00:29:11] Essentially mid-level deciders who can say confidently, these are the black and white questions that have already been answered. This is the answer and move everybody forward. Like we have a lot of bottlenecks that are still built into that, into that product. There is also an incredibly limiting factor of our user outreach, like are unactivated community members, as I like to call them in my notes to myself are the, the community members that represent our community of users.

[00:29:42] So people who don’t necessarily know that the project exists, they don’t necessarily know that they can like provide feedback about what is working. What’s not working, what’s broken. What is what could be made better? Like the lack of feedback from them. Frequently is something that is more of a [00:30:00] limiting factor than not having enough developers.

[00:30:02] Now, if the entire WordPress user base showed up and was like, here’s all of our feedback, like for sure, we would suddenly discover that we don’t have enough developers to get those things done can confirm. 

[00:30:13] Matt: Yeah. 

[00:30:13] Josepha: But, but yeah, I think that our more pressing issue is around the people who can help us, like confidently say, this is the most likely decision based on what we know from Mathias, who is our primary kind of Gutenberg architect or Riyadh or whoever it is.

[00:30:31] We just have such a small group of people who can do that. And that’s true to an extent in the WordPress project as well. There are various things that we could blame that on COVID is a great example of a thing that might cause people to be less. Less engaged in that level of, of contribution.

[00:30:52] But yeah, I think that in the hierarchy of things where I would say, yes, we definitely have a dearth of those. Those two would come up prior to developers on the open-source side.