A video which has been viewed over 1,400 times and caught the attention of today’s guest, Matt Mullenweg co-creator of WordPress & Founder of Automattic. I’ve had the pleasure of interviewing Mullenweg back in 2015, and have consumed nearly every other podcast he’s been featured on since.
I thought about doing a more in-depth analysis on Matt’s responses to my questions, but I’d rather let the content speak for itself, allowing you to digest our discussion then arrive at your own conclusions.
Though there is one word that sticks with me, and that’s: vulnerable.
There are some vulnerable moments when discussing topics relating to blue collar digital workers — or builders/implementors — that could spark a change in Matt’s long-term regard to a group of WordPress users that I feel control the under current of the CMS’s adoption.
Matt is also responsible for nearly 378,000* products under Autoamattic’s umbrella, to which he informed there’s a new internal initiative rolling out to help disperse some of the responsibilities not only from him, but the 1,400 other Automattician’s.
As for me, I do get very passionate about WordPress and my response to moments like these might do better if I sit on them a little longer or reach out to Matt directly. Who knows, maybe we’ll get more podcast episodes out of it.
I hope you enjoy today’s episode, please share it with the world, and leave a comment on the post.
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Matt Medeiros and Matt Mullenweg
[00:03:42] Medeiros: [00:03:42] I’d say 99.999% of the folks listening today know who you are and what you do is there one thing people don’t know. That you do.
[00:03:51] Do you practice like jujitsu or are you a culinary master behind the scenes? Anything else that’s new that people just might not know is like a hobby or something that you do really [00:04:00] well on the aside from work
[00:04:01]Mullenweg: [00:04:01] Some people might know, but it’s been so long now, but I know I want a jazz musician and that was how I got into building websites. And it’s why releases a WordPress are named after jazz musicians. Don’t know if I can still call myself that, but I definitely was for a long time. And it’s what I thought I was going to do professionally before.
[00:04:18]I got into this web stuff.
[00:04:20]Medeiros: [00:04:20] Look, I think a lot of folks think about this conversation and I don’t know why, but they’re there. I see comments. Like I can’t wait for Matt to talk to Matt about this stuff and like really roll up their sleeves and get at it. I don’t feel that way at all. In fact, I highly regard your position.
[00:04:39] I think I’ve told you before. I wouldn’t want your position. I know I wouldn’t want to have to thwart the the comments that come at you every day and run a thousand ish person company. A lot of work. So I applaud you and really respect that position. I’m really interested to chat today and maybe see both sides of [00:05:00] our views and opinions and have a better understanding at the end of the day.
[00:05:05]Mullenweg: [00:05:05] I think the mat squared report is a great recurring feature. So I’m sorry that we had some scheduling trouble, but glad that we could make it back on. Probably they thought that because I did leave that a pretty lengthy comment on your, I spell it WordPress video. Cause I disagreed with some points there, but it didn’t feel thank you for responding.
[00:05:23] I felt like you, you listened and you read it and maple loop to some of that as well.
[00:05:28]Medeiros: [00:05:28] Before I get there, I want to tell you, I love simple note. Simple note is the app I use every single day of my life. I’m dying for more simple notes stuff. And this is a bigger question. Look, you’re responsible for, by say you’re responsible and maybe you can enlighten me. Maybe you’re not responsible, but I feel like man, there’s so much product.
[00:05:54] Under Matt Mullenweg, WordPress, Automattic, .com all the offerings, [00:06:00] jetpack simple note, Tumblr, the list goes on happy tools, Jetpack CRM. there’s so much where do you find yourself focusing that attention for like crazy simple note users like myself to say give us more.
[00:06:15]Mullenweg: [00:06:15] The good news for something like simple note is it happens without me having to think about it. Cause I to a minute, 20 times a day, at least, and on all of the different devices. So I’m a very passionate user. Simpler does not where I. I consciously focus my time, but I was just talking to the team the other day about like changing where the search is on desktop, because we moved it to be more like a Mac iOS standard, but it’s a little more confusing.
[00:06:38] It’s, that’s like a fun thing for me. Maybe after hours. Some of the other products you mentioned tumbler, Woo, wordpress.com are more of an official part of my day. And the way I cover so much is just by having really fantastic teams and and folks I work with on every side of it whether that’s Josepha on the .org side of things Paul Miorana on WooCommerce, the list [00:07:00] goes on and on.
[00:07:00] Try to think of automatic as a fractal organization. We’re about 1400 people. Now let’s say a VIP’s run running around 200 this week. That looks a lot like Automattic did when we were 200 people and Nick who runs that has a similar executive structure underneath him that I did when we were doing to people for the whole company or that rather Tony Schneider did.
[00:07:20] So there’s a lots of ways to approach it. And we found that form of scaling is a very effective and I really don’t see a ceiling on it. We’ll hire. And onboard probably 400 people this year. And it’s that if you had told me that 10 years ago, that would seem completely crazy. And I wouldn’t even know, I couldn’t name 400 people in my life, let’s just hire them.
[00:07:44]And now it actually seems like a very natural progression of what we’ve been doing the past few years in terms of scaling the business.
[00:07:51]Medeiros: [00:07:51] Do you look at these endeavors? And I think when I, of course now I’m forgetting the gentleman that I interviewed about simple note [00:08:00] I think you call them is it, are they called long bets? Is that like the code name internally?
[00:08:04] Mullenweg: [00:08:04] internally we other bets. The long bets would also be a great name and I’m part of the long now foundation. So that would be a good one. They are often long-term but there are things other than our main areas, which is basically consumers, subscriptions e-commerce and enterprise are the three main areas.
[00:08:21] Automattic focuses on.
[00:08:22] Medeiros: [00:08:22] And when you look to hire, is it primarily just Automattic, VIP? Folks are going to be focusing on your core focus other than let’s say a simple note or a happy tool or something like that.
[00:08:35]Mullenweg: [00:08:35] Much like we, we try to follow a five for the future for.org. Something we built into Automatic’s culture is having a five for the future for our products. So that’s other bets. So we try to have about 5% of the company focused just on contributing.org and then about 5% of the company working on things that are going from zero to one.
[00:08:54] So they’re there in that pre-product market fit phase of building things. [00:09:00] It’s a little less right now. I think we’re good on the.org side, but we’re a little low on the other beds and that’s just cause it’s a, it’s a. It’s been a busy year. And particularly with things like the turnaround for Tumblr and others, we want to make sure that we have enough people on things to to see like an acquisition through it’s. The biggest mistake companies usually make with acquisitions is it’s been a ton of time leading up to it and buying the company and then they don’t pay as much attention to it afterwards. And for example, for DME, what we want to make sure that we have. Yeah, the best team possible to grow that potential, which is it tens of millions of monthly active users blogging, which is really cool.
[00:09:39] So let’s get them the best are blogging capabilities. And then and see what happens.
[00:09:44]Medeiros: [00:09:44] Is that something that when you look at Tumblr, do you look at. This might be getting it. I don’t know, maybe into too much of the secret ingredients of all of this stuff. But does that look when you make an acquisition, like tumbler, do you say, yeah, we’re going to run Tumblr as an independent business and [00:10:00] we will focus on that.
[00:10:01]I, on his business model to monetize tumbler, or do you see that more of how do we integrate this more into a.com feature like tumbler powered by.com tumbler powered by Gutenberg? Like how do you see that synergy happening? If there even is one.
[00:10:16] Mullenweg: [00:10:16] Yeah. We try to have kind of three or plans for every business where the first year is fairly high resolution and it gets a little fuzzy or there’s further educate, which is okay. Same thing with acquisition, we try to say, okay, what step was the three applying for this on the three-year plan for Tumblr?
[00:10:34]The initial parts are very much advertising focused since that’s been their business model thus far. But as we get into year two, which we are now and three. I think there’s a very interesting e-commerce and membership opportunity for tumbler and some really passionate creators, so much happening there.
[00:11:24] That would be. Probable first step for how we start to switch over their sites, but there are a massive number of blogs, I think over half a billion. So obviously not all active, but it is a fairly large migration task. How will we do that?
[00:11:39] Medeiros: [00:11:39] Yeah, certainly not just pick it up, throw it on your S3 bucket and off to the races you go for any stretch of the imagination. Let’s talk more about the recent shift, or it’s not even a shift, really, because as you said, this might just be an experiment with the I don’t even know what your proper title of it is.
[00:11:59] Is [00:12:00] website services by Automattic or.com or something like that. I will try to quickly preface this to give you hopefully a bird’s eye view of. my take and my reasoning for being so passionate about this stuff. First and foremost, love WordPress, defend WordPress, It doesn’t matter what Hill I’m dying on.
[00:12:21]It’s old, he’s WordPress. I’m a mentor in a local accelerator and, I see all these people going Wix and Squarespace, and I’m just like, you gotta use WordPress. And as painful as it might be for very beginner users, it’s getting better. When I see in the impetus behind the original video, I spell it.
[00:12:39] WordPress now. You have to take a look back at me years ago, as somebody who was trying to monetize WordPress plugin, trying to break into the space. There’s a lot of threads of thought here, but it’s just many years of. just not feeling appreciated is not the right word. It’s the first one that comes to my [00:13:00] head.
[00:13:00] But you try to submit a theme to the theme team. And you remember, this is decade ago. We don’t like ads. We don’t like upsells. There’s this, you [email protected] repository from a 50,000 foot view and wow, isn’t this just themeforest now, tax me to be here. Happily pay the tax to be, to have an ecosystem that I can tap into Alyse Shopify in web flow and things like that.
[00:13:26] And then I also see from the Shopify and Webflow side partnerships, open app store, like that kind of thing, being a lot more open, and what I feel is a constant shift into moving all things. The best WordPress experience, moving all things to jet pack and to wordpress.com. And then the icing on the cake is we’ll build your website now.
[00:13:52]So then I
[00:13:53] Mullenweg: [00:13:53] lot going on there. I don’t know if I agree with all those assumptions, but we can talk through
[00:13:57] Medeiros: [00:13:57] there. There’s a lot of deep roots here, Matt. So [00:14:00] I have this
[00:14:00] Mullenweg: [00:14:00] we start 10 years ago
[00:14:01] when you submitted the theme?
[00:14:02] Medeiros: [00:14:02] 10 years ago. Blue collar, digital worker. That’s the phrase that I use, I feel as a very underrepresented segment of even when automatic looks at the community, designers, developers like is probably like what, 80% of the core community. And then there’s folks,
[00:14:23] Mullenweg: [00:14:23] like the term
[00:14:24] Medeiros: [00:14:24] to build, trying to build a business, trying to do things with WordPress and. It’s that frustration. It’s the weight of all of that,
[00:14:34] I tweeted out the other day I was working on a friend site, had jet pack. It went to install a plugin and the message that on the plugin install screen said, Oh, by the way, I forget what the exact word is, but you could get exploited or malware through the plugins. Yes, but it’s but Jetpack, you came from wordpress.org, who do I trust?
[00:14:54]And it’s those types of things that it’s not these big things that happen. It’s death by a thousand [00:15:00] paper cuts. And that’s the feeling. It’s a feeling that I think a lot of people, I know a lot of people feel and are frustrated by. And all of that bubbles up to, like me making a video, that thousand people watch and most of them agree.
[00:15:18] That’s how we got here at this moment in time, and that’s the level of frustration. There’s a lot to even like attack at that point or to respond to at that point. But I just wanted to lay it all out on the table for you. Is that how I’ve gotten to this point of feeling. Man, maybe it’s the implementer.
[00:15:38] Who’s not very valuable in this community. And if it isn’t that’s okay. I’ll leave the floor up to you to figure out which bone you want to pick out first.
[00:15:47] Mullenweg: [00:15:47] to start. Let me start with what you called implementers, which I have to call builders. I do agree that they’re not always the most prominent and like core discussions. Sometimes these [00:16:00] people are busy, they’re building sites for people, so they might not be in our Slack or things like that.
[00:16:05] I take it as a personal responsibility to stay very connected to that community and try to represent their needs and the core direction. I would argue that Gutenberg itself was largely in response to what I was hearing from, I would say smaller builders, shops, people one to 10 employees, building sites for five to $20,000.
[00:16:35]It was that the numbers are going to be different internationally as well. So I, these numbers aren’t necessarily useful, but No. I was hearing from them that they were starting to use third-party tools to build things, to save time for clients that clients they were having to build very complex things with advanced custom fields and other kind of like interfaces that weren’t very WYSIWYG to help people create about pages or make it easier for [00:17:00] their clients to update.
[00:17:01] And that was part of what brought us to Gutenberg. I was saying, there is a easier WYSIWYG ish way to approach some of these problems that doesn’t need someone on a random database form fields is something that looks like PHP, my admin to update their about page versus, something where you’re actually seeing the images and like it’s more one-to-one with What you’re building, what the other good news is that I hear a lot from this community. So for whatever reason, they find my contact form and Twitter handle, and I get a lot of DMS. And that’s obviously not fully representative, but I do feel like I get a little more feedback from that section of the many stakeholders that WordPress has.
[00:17:40]A good mountain. I would love more. So there’s anyone listening to this that wants to just share with me your story about how WordPress is working or not for you, your favorite plugins, all this stuff like what’s beautiful is every story is valid and whatever someone’s feeling is what they’re feeling.
[00:17:57] So it’s true. And these [00:18:00] antidotes one we can digest enough of them so often can show patterns that can be really useful. For determining what is a future focus for WordPress, the four phases of Gutenberg post and page editing, full site editing essentially workflow.
[00:18:16] And then multi-lingual a hundred percent. And for the feedback I’ve gotten from various constituents, since the WordPress community now WordPress is not one thing over another. We are open source, everyone can and does use the software and. I think one of the beautiful tension that we maintain how I like to put it is every single release, making it more accessible and easier for people new to WordPress and more powerful and flexible for those who are familiar with WordPress already.
[00:18:46]I think a lot about interfaces, not just being easy, but being intuitive so that whether you’re seeing, what have you been using WordPress for one day or 10 years? When you come across a new feature, a new interface, you can [00:19:00] have some guideposts to how to use it. That addresses very one small part of what you said, but I don’t want to talk for 10 minutes, so I just I’ll throw it back to you.
[00:19:08]Medeiros: [00:19:08] There’s a camp of people who are like, man, something happens my video or this, tiny little blip on the radar, this jet pack thing, but jet pack is much larger. It is the monetization play. I’ll say it, I guess you could say no, but it’s the monetization play from automatic to say we’ve got all of these free WordPress sites out there.
[00:19:29] How do we monetize it? Yes. How do we make the experience better for the consumer, but also how do we monetize this? It’s a perfectly finding that the thing is quite obvious at this point, but anything that ever happens in this space to defend you, people go, it’s just, it’s, he’s just going to make money with this stuff.
[00:19:45] I don’t really care about that side of it. You an Automattic, there’s nothing wrong with that. In my eyes, it is, the lack of that connection to looking at the community members [00:20:00] and saying, how will this impact, how will this impact them? And I think. People forget that, like now you are a 1500 person company.
[00:20:10]Matt is no longer in the room with us building WordPress with us anymore. It’s a totally like it was maybe 20 years ago. It’s a totally different ball game. Now there’s a lot of things at play. When you look at what Shopify does, and I guess here’s a more direct question when you look at what Shopify does or what Webflow does with their.
[00:20:28] Partnerships in their communities. Do you ever see yourself going in that direction or even formalizing a marketplace on wordpress.org to just have a component that I can just bolt into and say here’s 30% for automatic. Here’s 70% for me. And we do business that way.
[00:20:48]Mullenweg: [00:20:48] Good set of questions there. One for the staying in touch point of view, one thing I think, which has allowed WordPress to be a lot more adaptable is the accessibility of the people building it, no matter, [00:21:00] even if you’re a very large store on Shopify, you can’t join Shopify, Slack where they’re building it.
[00:21:06] And DM Toby, he’s a nice guy, but there’s not the level of flexibility, but if you wanted to join a WordPress out of work, Slack and DME, and you can. And by the way people do that. So don’t be shy there. I also tried to be on the post status Slack, that I tried to be very accessible because I love to learn.
[00:21:23] I love to read. So those are just things that are part of a good feedback loop. And I would say that applies to, if you look at the 500 plus people who were part of the last word, press release You could get in touch with pretty much any of them. And that’s pretty special. There’s very few things like that on internet.
[00:21:42] Certainly the scale of the WordPress is
[00:21:45] Medeiros: [00:21:45] yeah, when I’m mad at my iPhone, I can’t, Hey, Tim want to be on my podcast, like that’s not happening. So I totally appreciate this connection. And the value of that in the community.
[00:21:57] Mullenweg: [00:21:57] And it’s things like the podcast, but it’s also the little [00:22:00] things, The one thing you said was the marketplace. We’ve always kept wordpress.org in particular free Joe people pay 0% and there’s businesses making tens of millions of dollars a year on there. And they’re not paying anything to automatic or anyone else.
[00:22:16]There’s so there’s not really any plans to. To build a billing system or charge for things I think is also perfectly fine that third-party marketplaces like at the forest spring out and they take their 30% or whatever the percentage that’s fine. Again, tens of millions or hundreds of millions of dollar businesses built on top of WordPress and they that’s one of the freedoms to do I don’t see WordPress being held back by the lack of our marketplace on the automatic side. There we do run marketplaces. So there’s the marketplace, there’s a WooCommerce marketplace. So there are different areas where we can provide access to a lot of users, maybe a one-click checkout experience.
[00:22:57] And then there’s a revenue share for that. I love those [00:23:00] models because it’s like what you said, people make money together. Hopefully we’re selling things that we’re in, we’re selling to customers that would be hard to reach otherwise. And hopefully the customer’s getting value to that.
[00:23:10] And there can be a win-win. I don’t see it again, Shopify you could ask a lot of the partners and they’re not crazy about that. Remember famously MailChimp and Shopify did that big break up that was around very onerous terms from Shopify. The participation in the marketplace and what that rev share with even MailChimp.
[00:23:28]Shopify is also, I think a good example of almost an Amazon like marketplace, which allows a bit of freedom in the marketplace and then copies it and crushes the people in the community. That I haven’t really seen happen in the WordPress community, even when automatic has moved into something like a WooCommerce.
[00:23:47] Easy digital downloads still seems to be doing great. And the other e-commerce plugins in the marketplace. So I don’t look to them as models as a good thing, and also like the Apple app store, like the [00:24:00] fact that WordPress itself almost got banned from the store. Like I really much prefer the more open source open access.
[00:24:06]There is some trade off there in terms of if someone does want a commercial solution, they might need to sign up for a new site and put their credit card in again. But to me that’s getting easier and easier with Apple pay and other things.
[00:24:19]Medeiros: [00:24:19] Would you say that? And I think one of the statements that came out of our last conversation almost five years ago was, and I think it’s even more true today is. Jet pack is the best way to experience WordPress
[00:24:33]Mullenweg: [00:24:33] I think of WordPress plus Jetpack is really compelling.
[00:24:37] Medeiros: [00:24:37] because if I were your marketing person, that’s what I’d be saying. A jet pack is the best way to experience WordPress and. So now let’s lay a foundation to that. If all of a sudden .org had a marketplace tomorrow, it would probably impact, people maybe even turning to jet pack or potentially even utilizing some of the features of jet pack.
[00:24:57]The feeling of [00:25:00] frustration that a user has, I think, is a benefit to jet pack. I’ve got 10 plugins from 10 different authors. And now I have to go and knock on Pippin’s door. I have to knock on Yoast’s door, I have to go to Syed’s for opt-in monster. And I’m like, Hey guys, what? It’s not working on my site.
[00:25:17] How do I get this working?
[00:25:18] Mullenweg: [00:25:18] Yeah.
[00:25:19] Medeiros: [00:25:19] Your longterm success with Jetpack is to smooth all those edges out and say, you know what? We have everything here. So it’s almost that Amazon model where it’s like, Hey, we see forms are working really well. Let’s get forms in here. We see CRM. This is the craziest one of, I’ll admit we see CRMs are working.
[00:25:38] Let’s bring CRM jet pack in, and it’s a fair statement to say that all roads leading to jet pack is to make that experience. It’s better. True. False.
[00:25:47]Mullenweg: [00:25:47] trying to follow. But I would say is part of what jet pack was created was what the common complaint of things not working together with each other. The vast majority of plugins that people use are free [00:26:00] plugins, not the commercial ones. The commercial ones are the small minority. And so it’s not necessarily paid things, interrupting but it’s really just stuff working together.
[00:26:11]The other thing that Jetpack was created for it is to, important things that need a SAS service How can we provide those? Anti-spam being a great example. We’re plugging approaches to anti-spam had been ineffective, but the kind of, AI approach that kismet takes, which is part of Jetpack has been very effective over now, 15 years.
[00:26:32]So how can we essentially fund those and a Robin Hood’s been in the news for the wrong reason, but let’s go back to the story of Robin hood. Like what’s the bare minimum we can charge for, to subsidize providing a service for free. To 99% of users. And maybe that’s another differentiation from like Amazon prime, where everyone pays dues, Amazon prime, 99% or more of Jetpack users are free.
[00:26:56] So really it’s a little bit of a hack in that. [00:27:00] There are certain SAS things that I think make WordPress a lot more compelling that if we charged for it, probably make a lot of if we charged for stats or some of the things that are built into free Jetpack probably make a lot of money. But WordPress would be smaller.
[00:27:14] And my goal, which means it’s Automattic’s goal and also a lot of WordPress, the goal We want as many WordPress’s in the world and I think it’s good to put in context. And like you mentioned there were some people that were took the conclusion that you did around like the Jetpack notice.
[00:27:32] That got fixed really quickly, but maybe the build it for me program, or they do it for me program. The 5k we’ll build a site for you as like some sign of a larger conspiracy or that we’re being evil or that we’re holding back this important part of WordPress, or we don’t care about that anymore.
[00:27:49]But over the past 12, 13 months, there’ve been over 400,000 sites in the top 10 million that have been come onto WordPress. That’s 400,000 high end [00:28:00] sites. Each one of those spending probably at least 10,000 a year to build, to maintain, to hiring people. And that’s, when you get into the likely millions of people who are making their living in and around WordPress yeah, a few of ’em get worked up on Twitter and by the way, I’m part of this too, I’ll reply to quickly.
[00:28:17] And then that kind of escalates. And but if we zoom out a little bit and look at. What’s happened? What are the large numbers happening? Even the most controversial video or something like that is probably two or three orders of magnitude smaller than just the number of sites built in the past year.
[00:28:36] And the thing I just ask people to remember as well is that Twitter is a little bit designed to get people worked up. That is his business model. And by the way, I know this, but it happens to me too. And it’s just I think it’s the length, it’s short, it’s hard to have a nuanced conversation like we’re having now and even 280 characters.
[00:28:55] It is the algorithm for promoting these hot takes and controversy. [00:29:00] It’s the context, meaning that I maybe saw like a political thing or an environment, like something that got me really rattled up. Two tweets before I saw the screenshot of the Jetpack notice. And yeah, maybe I do believe that there’s a vast conspiracy by oil companies to.
[00:29:16] Trick is that recycling is a thing when it’s really just a way to sell more plastic and like we have to fight this. And I’m really worried that personally about that. It’s a true thing, by the way. And then I see this Jetpack notice and I’m like, Oh, there’s another one. This is just as bad as Exxon and Chevron and all the, all the kind of like grand conspiracies and the Davos and the Illuminati or whatever it might be like.
[00:29:37] It’s easy to draw lines between things that. Things that might be large and small can seem really large on Twitter. And and then things happen quickly. The what’s the old saying like disinformation can get, make its way around the world before the truth has a chance to put his pants on.
[00:29:53] There’s just the. What it rewards moving quickly versus the [00:30:00] truth, which gets out there very slowly. I experienced that really toughly. There’s something really tough. It might’ve been definitely in the past 18 months where there was someone who tweeted accusation that automatic had fired our African-American editor of one of our publications and this got over a thousand retweets more than that likes it was yeah, it was around the time that there was all social unrest and riots and everything like that.
[00:30:28] And so there was a huge pile on to this. It was factually untrue. The person replied, she had actually taken a job. Preserved foods left for a higher, more prominent job. And the original person who tweeted this actually replied a correction as well. So to their credit, like corrected this misinformation that correction got five retweets. So it was literally like a 200 to one ratio of the. The controversial, but untrue thing, so that true, but maybe a little less [00:31:00] of a salacious story thing that went out there. And that really broke my heart as well, because that’s obviously an issue that’s near and dear to the hearts of many people.
[00:31:10] And especially over the past year. And to know that there might have been folks who might’ve applied for automatic and then saw that and said, Oh, this isn’t a place that’s going to be welcoming to me. Was just despondent. So it’s just a good example of that. There’s also someone usually on the other end of these tweets, like in the jet pack example, like someone who made that example, the person who fixed it, like within 24 hours, like we should remember this humans on the other side,
[00:31:36] Medeiros: [00:31:36] right. Yeah. And definitely appreciate the team that, that adjusted that I would say for the record that I’m not spreading disinformation or cosmetic conspiracy
[00:31:45] Mullenweg: [00:31:45] do use your crushers. I appreciate.
[00:31:47]Medeiros: [00:31:47] That I tried to do this stuff. I am very passionate about it. Yes. And I can only make assumptions. The what I will say is I think that in the longterm where you might not [00:32:00] call jet pack a direct competitor, I would say that there will be a market correction.
[00:32:06]As Jetpack solves things like grab like forms better or galleries better, or I dunno, some other feature in there better than let’s say Pippin’s plugins. Eventually. I feel like the advantage that Jetpack has in both a brand and positioning that we’ll see a correction of maybe losing three of these smaller product companies.
[00:32:30] In the longterm as jet pack becomes much more mature, much more fortified. Is that fair?
[00:32:36]Mullenweg: [00:32:36] I do worry about that, but it is a very, long-term worry. Meaning at the point when we’re unable to add new users have worked for us
[00:32:45] Medeiros: [00:32:45] Right?
[00:32:46] Mullenweg: [00:32:46] and that’s remember, there’s still 6.9, 9 billion people who haven’t used WordPress yet. So we have a ways to go, but for extremely mature technology companies, Facebook has 2 billion people, daily active users, they’re running out of people.
[00:32:58] And so it is much more zero sum. [00:33:00] One thing that it was cool about all the year-end wrap-ups that got posted from the different commercial companies, the volunteers, everything of the people in WordPress community last year, which by the way, it was a challenging year for humanity. Was a pretty good year for all of the businesses you just mentioned and also a good year for automatic.
[00:33:17]As we expand the pie, everyone’s portion of the pie can also keep growing without a necessarily be a zero sum between them. We can work in these economics of abundance versus economics of scarcity. And that’s why if I get ever criticized. For really prioritizing growing the number of numbers of users of WordPress.
[00:33:38]It is true. It is very important to me that we at in our mission to democratize publishing that we bring more people on the WordPress, the platform. I think it’s, is it a trailing indicator of us doing our job of creating good product? Also keeps the companies from it allows us to work together a lot more.
[00:33:54]Even one thing that’s beautiful and WordPress direct competitors work together all the time. Hosting companies that are literally selling [00:34:00] the exact same thing. We’ll have developers coordinating on a new feature. I also will say yourself included that WordPress is blessed with a really great media.
[00:34:09]We have had in the past say a few years, some of the polarization where the, of the world seep into our communities where we’re fast to jump to conclusions or create sides on things. But at the same time I’ve never run into someone in the WordPress kind of public space or things like that, that didn’t really care about the truth as well.
[00:34:31] And was, it was willing to update their worldview based on new information. And I hope myself included. I can demonstrate that I’ll have strong opinions, but loosely held if new information is there, I want to update my, my view of reality because. If I am far from reality, that’s going to be bad for myself and everyone involved, everyone that have influence over where the closer I can be to understand reality the better and my [00:35:00] role in responsibility as a leader within this community, I can help navigate and focus my attention and my contributions to whatever’s most con constructive for all the stakeholders and WordPress community.
[00:35:13] Medeiros: [00:35:13] I’d say that I have a good understanding of your view of jet pack so far I’m not fully convinced that maybe not maybe saying even reached the resolution on the implementer or the builder’s space and the connection there and that’s okay. What I want to
[00:35:29] Mullenweg: [00:35:29] a good question to ask though. Automatic is a business and does move into business areas. Has any business automatic moved into so far, the elimination of all its competitors. Have the host grown or shrunk since wordpress.com started are the other foreign plugins doing better or worse than Jetpack forum started?
[00:35:49] Like you can almost look at every single example. We, my experience has been that automatic entering a place generally grows the market. Doesn’t operate in a zero sum way. [00:36:00] Enterprise is the same way. Think this came up, actually, it was a great tweak correction. It might’ve been Bridget or someone who said, automatic copy the, I forget what it was and I don’t want to misquote it.
[00:36:08] But basically the implication was we moved into enterprise space and took the oxygen out of the room from these companies I 10 up and others. And in fact, all those companies started after cross hybrid, et cetera, started after VIP. And I think VIP has been a big contributor to their business growing and scaling.
[00:36:24]Medeiros: [00:36:24] One of the things that I think that I’ve often talked about again, when for some reason people ask me like, what your thoughts are. I don’t know I don’t know what
[00:36:30] Mullenweg: [00:36:30] You are an influencer.
[00:36:32] Medeiros: [00:36:32] name. The people say don’t you think it’s just because, they want to IPO and they want to do all of this and they have this investments and they need to pay back the investors and that kind of thing.
[00:36:43] My hunch is that you’ve had tyranical capitalism knocking at the door to try to do something with core WordPress, wordpress.org and with Woo commerce, and the only like real painting I’ve [00:37:00] illustrated to myself and to maybe others is that, that you are actually defending. From, the monetization of core WordPress or, this aggressive capitalistic play on monetizing WordPress.
[00:37:12] I think that you might be actually defending, I can’t imagine the amount of emails you’ve deleted, where people wanted to throw money at you for the sake of the greater good being WordPress of course. And it’s four freedoms. But there has to be some loss there. And I think maybe the loss is we’re going to defend this thing called WordPress and to appease investors.
[00:37:34] And it’s not even a piece, it’s not even the right word, but we’re going to show them. We have this thing called Jetpack. That is Matt’s defense. Your defense to say, look, we don’t look guys. Don’t worry about trying to monetize wordpress.org or WooCommerce directly. Let me show you Jetpack instead as a way to defend WordPress with the unfortunate cannon fodder being the implementer or the business person.
[00:37:58] And I don’t even at [00:38:00] not even saying that this is a bad thing, because I can’t even imagine how many times you’ve had to defend and put a fence around people who have said, if you just put an ad right here, you could make $5 million a month by putting a buy now on the install, WordPress page or something like that.
[00:38:16]It’s, that’s a feeling of mine. I have obviously, no. Insight into that, but you can either speak to that or not, but I feel like that is Jetpack is is a great way for you to say save the core WordPress open source. This is what I focus on. If we’re not talking about Jetpack, we’re not talking about investing in, in, in automatic or even looking at WooCommerce, that kind of thing.
[00:38:39] Do you think that’s fair?
[00:38:40]Mullenweg: [00:38:40] Yeah, there. Yeah. So I would say a weakness of mine is I’m not building websites anymore for $25 an hour. I’ve been very fortunate even outside of WordPress with my investments and everything like that to essentially be a lottery winner. And so since. My early twenties. I have not been motivated by [00:39:00] more money cause I have more than any one person could need, but really motivated by the impact of my work and the things I’m supporting in a part of in the world.
[00:39:11] And the toughest thing within any open source or any open community is essentially commercial interests. That take too much for themselves without putting enough back. That’s why we have the fire for the future program. It’s amazing that all it takes is 5% 95% could be doing whatever. But if every company in the WordPress community did put that 5% in WordPress would actually be, I would say three to five times larger than it is today.
[00:39:42]We have some amazing companies, the tinnitus, the Yost automatics that do a lot of this. And I hope that more and more joining the suture as they see those companies also do really well. But. That is my motivation. So that, I guess the bright side of that is it would be really hard to bride me.
[00:40:00] [00:40:00] The downside of that is that I do need to do extra work, to stay in touch with the builders with everyone else that you talked about the other companies. And so that’s why I just try to have that open door policy and know I had a zoom with one of the With a large agency folks yesterday and just hearing like, how’s your business going?
[00:40:18] How’s, what’s the latest, what’s the, what are they hearing from their clients? What are they building on Gutenberg versus others? How are they bidding against other things in the market? How’s Adobe experience manager doing? So these things are really helpful because I do have the part of the world that I work in every day.
[00:40:33] And and so I need help to stay connected to all the rest of the things going on in WordPress.
[00:40:37]Medeiros: [00:40:37] You said your one week, that was one week. I think, man, you do a lot. You do too much, Matt. You do too much like that. You let it go. Like you said, you were very, you felt very personally responsible for the builders. When I jokingly, maybe it doesn’t come off as a joke and I’d say things like a PR agency or stuff like that, like I think.
[00:40:54] You need to just give someone that role to really stay grounded [00:41:00] to that, and then maybe report to you or something like that. I feel like you, I, this is just me speaking bluntly. I feel like you wear too many hats but kudos to you for balancing it for 20 years.
[00:41:10] Mullenweg: [00:41:10] So I’m always putting hats on and taking hats off.
[00:41:13]A good example is I was actually personally running wordpress.com last year. And so that was a lot of work.
[00:41:19] Medeiros: [00:41:19] Yeah.
[00:41:19] Mullenweg: [00:41:19] And, part of doing that was also identifying someone I could pass that hat to. Actually we just started a new framework inside automatic called hats. That sort of shows that like many roles, especially in a fast growing company, you might take on and put off without necessarily a title change or something like that. So we need to be flexible to do things differently. I really do look up to, these are flawed role models, but folks like.
[00:41:45]Elon Musk or bill Gates, or, folks who are, can say highly, technically connected to every single part of the business, and then use that knowledge to help navigate, because I do believe that the more layers of [00:42:00] abstraction you’re dealing with the further away from reality you are and the harder it is to understand what’s really going on.
[00:42:06]So we do, we do obviously hire lots of people that do the things I used to do things instead of me But occasionally I feel, and for any leaders listening to this it’s it’s good to dive down into the details. I was doing some live chat support last week. Yeah. I’m hoping to do some more this week.
[00:42:20] So if you chatted with wordpress.com support, you might’ve gotten me is that the most valuable use of my time? If it were 40 hours a week now, but if it were a couple of hours a month, Oh it’s invaluable. I think it’s actually one of the most valuable things I do. So it’s I would say, think about even when you scale to thousands of people, how you can stay connected to the core of your business, which is really the customer
[00:42:42]Medeiros: [00:42:42] I think maybe one of the things that be coming out of 90, and we’re not even out of the pandemic yet, but we’re go through those that this whole last year and seeing so many. People that I’ve seen on Twitter saying, look, the client business has dried up I say, man, wouldn’t it be great. If [00:43:00] instead of automatic launching their division of $5,000 websites, there was this collection of building and boutique agencies that could satisfy the needs of a $0 to $5,000 website. And lift these people up. Who’ve been, cheerleaders for WordPress for many years.
[00:43:19] Mullenweg: [00:43:19] I a hundred percent agree with you there.
[00:43:21]So I think we’re in total agreement. It’s just an order of operations, to, to launch the test, we’ve done things like Jetpack pro and other things to pick up pro and others that essentially build an agency list. Obviously the enterprise side of the business works with dozens of partners there and sends all that out.
[00:43:38]But for this, which is literally a test with one or two people working on it, it was easier to work with an Upworker, a codeable to try to see if we’d get that funnel. Because it’s no good for us to bring in 20 or a thousand agencies, if there’s only five clients a month going through it. We need to flow first.
[00:43:53] And so just from the order of building it, like to test this concept, to see whether this is even something people signing up for wordpress.com want [00:44:00] it was just, what the resources, this thing was, I really did mean it was an experiment when it’s very much to go. I think that’s when you start to say, okay, how do we open this up?
[00:44:09] It is very clear. And I’ve said this before automatic is not a consulting company. We’re not a people shop and we’re very much all about technology and engineering and algorithms and that sort of deep tech and SAS services and that sort of stuff is where we’re always going to focus. So any place where we’re able to send out consulting or building or something that we’re going to look for the opportunities to do because that’s just how we’ve.
[00:44:37] Define the business. It is pretty core to our identity. There’s also things like jobs.wordpress.net that we do need to loop back on and do a better job of I noticed actually as part of that discussion that the LinkedIn jobs, that word presented had fallen off the footer of wordpress.org, by the way, for those who don’t know, which probably almost everyone, this is a free job listing site where people can list.
[00:44:58] People they want to hire or look for [00:45:00] jobs in the WordPress world. That’s, you’re probably be way better. Maybe also someplace where we charged the minimum amount to keep out spam and stuff. So that might be, someplace where we say it’s $5 to list your job or something that just goes to the WordPress foundation.
[00:45:12] But again, if we ever charge for things, it’s usually for They keep the quality high, like why do we charge for our camp tickets it’s so we can properly plan for how much food to buy and how many t-shirts to order, because when you make a totally free, a lot of people sign up and don’t show up.
[00:45:26] So if we charge 20 to 25 bucks, it’s not going to keep anyone from going, you get by the way, probably $500 or a thousand dollars worth of value from that. But allows for less wastage in the planning. So sometimes if you do see a charge on the.org side of things, it’s usually for that reason then necessarily trying to.
[00:45:44] Create a marketplace or something. And a lot of people don’t know this, but.org doesn’t have the WordPress foundation has no full-time employees. There’s zero. And so that is a design goal. So when you say make a marketplace, it’s already even a small marketplace, I need to hire 20. Or [00:46:00] twenty-five people building the billing systems, handling refunds, doing support, all these sorts of things.
[00:46:03] And we do try to keep the employee base of the word presentation. Totally zero. Now we have lots of people working full-time on WordPress, but they are generally. Sponsored or volunteering or doing that as part of they’re employed by someone else. So that’s just also something good to put out there because a lot of people don’t realize that
[00:46:21]Medeiros: [00:46:21] Let me just drill down on that one that one specifically, because it was a note that I had, but I skipped over it, the quick story is I remember years ago.
[00:46:28] And let’s talk about some of the, the frustration of a product person. This should have gone earlier in the conversation, but the frustrations of a WordPress product person, stemming from some of the experiences we, it’s not just me, it’s many others openly blogged about it.
[00:46:42]Spending a theme to wordpress.org many years ago. I remember the theme that I put in was called journal, right? We’re writing it, we’re making a journal. And someone said. Now that name is too too vague, too ambiguous, right? We have to get something tighter and then Mo and then months later, I saw a theme get approved [00:47:00] called paper, and I was going, wait a minute, journal paper.
[00:47:04] What’s the difference? So it’s these, this is a small blip in the galaxy of events, but it’s those types of things where it’s largely led by volunteers. And people should not be upset of the volunteers. It’s the nature of the structure. And this is where I think people turn to and say if you made it a paid marketplace, there would be.
[00:47:26] There’s probably, and you probably know this better than I do. It’s probably a billion dollars that flows through wordpress.org. There’s probably something in there where we could carve out some money to pay for a team. It’s not an easy task, but one that I think would still be very profitable.
[00:47:40] I could be totally wrong. So that is a feeling and it’s not just me. This is many people echo this feeling of why is it free? Why is it volunteered? Why are they making decisions? Commercially based decisions, those types of things.
[00:47:53] Mullenweg: [00:47:53] It’s it’s a, it’s one of the, I think biggest mistakes I seen as a meme, the WordPress world that [00:48:00] free can not mean high quality. And I think WordPress itself. Largely developed by volunteers. Again, 95% of the contributors are not paid or sponsored by any company that you can actually have something that’s world-class, the equivalent of millions of dollars of value.
[00:48:17] If you were paying Adobe or someone for a CMS that wasn’t as good as WordPress developed for free by volunteers, Wikipedia, like there’s so many examples, Bitcoin, gosh doing that, never underestimate, underestimate. The power of people, passionate about an area working on it together for love, not money and doing so in a way where the ownership is shared.
[00:48:41]So if anything, I want to encourage a lot more of that. It doesn’t mean people can’t make money. It just means that let’s never assume that just because something is free. A free theme. Can’t be the best darn theme in the world. The free page builder, can’t be the best darn page builder, not just in the WordPress world, but in the entirety of all CMS, it’s a with [00:49:00] Gutenberg.
[00:49:00] So there’s ways to do it. And so if you ever find yourself saying that, just question that assumption. Cause there’s so many counterfactuals to it.
[00:49:06]Medeiros: [00:49:06] Do you ever feel like. You’re just getting started with WooCommerce. Like when you just take a step back and you look at, and you go, man, I haven’t even done anything. And again, people ask me all the time. What do you think Matt is doing with WooCommerce? Like I know, I feel like you have the same challenges.
[00:49:26] A lot of us product people have where you have money. But you just can’t get enough darn people on this thing at the same time to get this thing moving. It’s a very similar challenge to maybe even Pippin’s plugins and SIADH and Yoast. It’s not the money. It’s the time. It’s the people and getting that all in sync.
[00:49:47]What are your thoughts on WooCommerce? Just getting started or however you see it.
[00:49:54] Mullenweg: [00:49:54] it’s day one with all commerce, the, when you look at the potential there [00:50:00] I often say that we’re WooCommerce is where WordPress was in 2008. I would say that’s for software maturity in terms of like where sort of percent of the market that it’s captured, it’s where WordPress wasn’t like 2003, what?
[00:50:14] It was like B2, plus some hacks. There’s just so much there and probably a good place to mention that automatic is hiring for 30 or 40 open roles. So whatever is, you’re a copywriter. If you’re a support person, if you’re person like, we are hiring as fast as possible. And and a lot of those new hires are going into the WooCommerce side of things.
[00:50:33] So if you’re interested in that, it is it’s the largest rocket ship I’ve ever been a part of. And if we do it right, it is not just bigger than all the rest of automatics businesses combined, but probably maybe like a. Two to 10 X bigger.
[00:50:51]Medeiros: [00:50:51] That’s tremendous. One of the things. Speaking of products. I wish you put more money into things like video press was a [00:51:00] phenomenal product, but it’s all integrated into Jetpack. Now with this rise in a video and all of this stuff is that just going to be a long-term bet or is, do you not see like that chunk of Jetpack or the business being something that’s a very alluring right now?
[00:51:17] Mullenweg: [00:51:17] Yeah, just to give two little previews for your audience. Cool update the video press conference. It is very eminent, good player, especially is so much cooler so much nicer. It feels even more modern than like a YouTube player. Continuous updates to the infrastructure. So we’re making as automatic builds out its global network.
[00:51:35] I think we’re 30 plus points of presence globally. If you look at DNS perf we’re usually second to only CloudFlare or Google for how fast the network is, it’s a kind of hidden part of automatic. Then I’m really proud of that. Not a lot of people know about. So look for that to be a lot faster.
[00:51:51] And then finally as you probably see with Jetpack CRM, Jetpack backup, a few things is we’re making it so you can both buy and [00:52:00] install these things. All a cart. Don’t think video press is still standalone plugin right now, but essentially what we’ve been doing with Jetpack is architecting it.
[00:52:07] So if people just want one of these features, they could just install that, add on a plugin much like Jetpack backup for CRM or how kismet and Jetpack interact. We want to get people the flexibility. To pick and choose just what they want because I do it’s not entirely true because Jetpack has its own internal plugin system.
[00:52:27] So if you’re only using one module, the rest of the code has been loaded. It’s not somebody on your side at all. But I do get the perception where people will like, does 20 things while using five of them. So yeah, ways that we can break it up, I think are are helpful. Aye. There still is.
[00:52:41]The truth is that if you install Jetpack and the CD and everything go make your site faster, though. And I think a lot of people, I appreciate that people can start different benchmarks and things to overcome the the myth that Jetpack slows your site down. When in fact it actually speeds it up.
[00:52:54]Medeiros: [00:52:54] I don’t do bonus rounds anymore, but here it is. I totally side with you on the [00:53:00] The other Matt and Matt feud with the JAMstack stuff. Look, I, again, diehard a WordPress fan. When I start to see all of these points of services connecting together, just for me to publish a website, I’m like, what’s the point?
[00:53:13] I can do it all with WordPress. And the note. And so they’re getting to the question the no code, low code movement. Is phenomenal right now. I feel it’s again, like you were saying, like it’s like WordPress 2004, when everyone was like, look what I can build with advanced custom fields in WordPress.
[00:53:30]Arguably WordPress, probably the best no-code low-code tool that’s that’s been in existence for for 20 years.
[00:53:37] Mullenweg: [00:53:37] But maybe we have the worst marketing team. So we’ve got some things we can learn there.
[00:53:41]Medeiros: [00:53:41] And I see all these people putting, Hey, I’m using web flow, I’m using air table. And then I’m coupling that with a gum road and MailChimp. And and I’m looking at it, just, my head is hurting but you don’t own any of these points in your stack that you could do with WordPress.
[00:54:00] [00:54:00] And I guess the frustration. Is that a lot of people look at it and go, geez. I don’t think I can do this with WordPress or WordPress is too slow, too. Yada, whatever they have to say. It’s an amazing time. Do you feel like the no code, low code movement is a fad? Do you see all of these things going away to a degree
[00:54:19] Mullenweg: [00:54:19] some of the companies are fats. The movements is basically the movement. It’s a multi-decade movement that WordPress has been surfing, which is this idea that things you used to have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to do. Sometimes software, I can make it with a few clicks you can do.
[00:54:39] And that’s so empowering. That’s a promise where to see technology at its best when it essentially gives super powers to people. That’s what we mean by democratization is it’s providing a freedom of expression capabilities that wouldn’t be there without the software. And so that, it’s been rebranded recently.
[00:54:58] He’s like low-code or no-code [00:55:00] you are correct that WordPress is. In many ways, a low-code or no-code tool we don’t get credit for it. There was basically, I just saw a website builder report and I was like, Shopify is 50%. I was like, what? And then I looked and they weren’t counting WordPress as a website builder.
[00:55:15] And I was like, Oh, okay.
[00:55:18] Medeiros: [00:55:18] This is where your angry tweet comes in. Why did you do this?
[00:55:21] Mullenweg: [00:55:21] okay. They have a very specific reason where it basically like, as Gutenberg gets further on, I think they’ll count us as a website builder. So the methodology was consistent if even if I didn’t agree with it. And it is true that Shopify is really the only other platform other than WordPress that’s growing in a meaningful way.
[00:55:40] So I think it was interesting to look at,
[00:55:41] Medeiros: [00:55:41] Yeah.
[00:55:43] Mullenweg: [00:55:43] go ahead.
[00:55:44] Medeiros: [00:55:44] I was going to say to your note about like empowering, like feeling empowered through software the biggest. Revelation to me as a quote, unquote developer many years ago was Drupal version four with the combination of CCK and views. My mind [00:56:00] was blown. Like I could build a view of data without having to write a query and knowing, back then and how to write SQL and stuff like that.
[00:56:09] And I was like, wow, this is magical. Those are moments that you feel powerful when you’re able to do that kind of thing.
[00:56:17] Mullenweg: [00:56:17] I think where there’s a huge opportunity for word press community, including individual bloggers is an education and tutorials. So let’s say that something, when you just listed the Webflow plus air table and come road. What’s each one, each name you listed. There is a business with sometimes hundreds of employees.
[00:56:36] That’s making millions and millions, probably tens of millions of dollars. And so they invest a lot into essentially user education, tutorials conferences, things like that. We need to do a lot better job. At writing the walk-throughs did you ever see a video game walkthrough? It’s like curious how to get through super Mario or something like that.
[00:56:56] Like, all these things are possible with WordPress, but some of those [00:57:00] levels, the boss monster is really hard and people don’t make it fast enough. So if there’s a little bit of a tutorial or walkthrough, that’s really valuable. And I think it’s also important for these to come from folks without necessarily commercial interests.
[00:57:13] There are a lot of. A lot of the tutorial, if you Google for a lot of things around WordPress, you end up on affiliate sites and people are just trying to sell you a particular thing. And, we need a lot more of that. Here’s the best way to do it. Maybe it says you should buy something.
[00:57:29]Maybe it doesn’t, maybe there’s a free alternative. And so I think that’s a downside as well as almost every WordPress company has an affiliate program. Sometimes the sort of free and unbiased tutorials and things are. Are just shelling for one
[00:57:43] Medeiros: [00:57:43] Let, let Let me step in as your PR coach, Matt. Nope. Let’s avoid. That is a lot of people listening to this who are WordPress YouTubers myself included, but I don’t use a lot of affiliate links.
[00:57:52] Mullenweg: [00:57:52] I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with affiliate links, but I think what’s beautiful is you want to promote the best solution and you don’t have the [00:58:00] integrity to say that maybe something’s not paid. It might be the best solution for this particular thing.
[00:58:05]Medeiros: [00:58:05] A hundred percent Matt Mullenweg. Thanks for taking some time out of your day to, to reach out and have this discussion. Obviously folks can find you everywhere. Twitter, your blog, M a T
[00:58:17] Mullenweg: [00:58:17] made that TT. Yeah. Fotomat pho, T O M a T on Tumblr, Instagram and Twitter. I’ll try. I’m trying. One of my resolutions is to fight less on Twitter. So I’m trying to
[00:58:28] use that one a little less. I could do a lot more if I use Twitter less. So watch out 2021.
[00:58:36] Medeiros: [00:58:36] Take to by someone everyone else. mattreport.com. mattreport.com/subscribe to join the mailing list. We’ll see you in the next episode.
[00:58:43] Mullenweg: [00:58:43] Hey Matt, thank you so much. I really appreciate this.
[00:58:47] Medeiros: [00:58:47] I appreciate it as well. Matt. Thanks a lot.