A new business model for no code

Matt Report for WordPress, SaaS, and No-Code business
Matt Report for WordPress, SaaS, and No-Code business
A new business model for no code
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I came across Kristen Youngs’ YouTube channel while I was exploring the popular no code Bubble.io platform.

At first, I thought she was creating the typical tutorial videos channel around this very popular app building platform, but as I explored more, I realized she was building a very unique business behind the scenes.

I think most of us in the client services or consulting space, long to have an additional stream of income that isn’t directly tied to our consulting hours. You’ll often see a digital download, a one-time course, or a finely-tuned productized service that effectively optimizes our work effort to profit margin ratio.

But what Kristen and her partner are building at coachingnocodeapps.com is something of a hybrid.

It’s a coaching series, a course, and recurring consulting for customers that need help building out their Bubble app.

In the WordPress world, this might be like selling a web design course for Elementor while you do monthly check-ins to help your clients build out new pages or add new functionality.

Needless to say, I really like this model.

Kristen brings the knowledge in today’s episode. I’m going to leave you with this one question to ponder as you continue on…what do you think the most challenging part of her business is?

You’re listening to the Matt Report, a podcast for the resilient digital business builder. Subscribe to the newsletter at mattreport.com/subscribe and follow the podcast on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Better yet, please share this episode on your social media! We’d love more listeners around here.

Episode transcript

Kristen Youngs Matt Report Podcast

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[00:01:39] I came across Kristen Young’s YouTube channel while I was exploring the popular no code bubble.io platform. At first, I thought she was creating the typical tutorial videos around this very popular app building platform. But as I explored more, I realized she was building a very unique business behind the scenes. I think most of us in the client services or consulting space long to have an additional stream of income [00:02:00] that isn’t directly tied to our consulting hours. You’ll often see a digital download a one-time course or a finely tuned productized service that effectively optimizes. 

[00:02:09] Our work to profit margin ratio. But what Kristin and her partner are building at coaching no-code apps is something of a hybrid. It’s a coaching series, a course, and a recurring consulting for customers that need help building out their bubble app. In the WordPress world, this might be like selling a web design course for Ella mentor. While you do monthly check-ins to help your client build out new pages and, or add new functionality. 

[00:02:33] Needless to say, I really liked this model. Kristen brings the knowledge in today’s episode. I’m going to leave you with this one question to ponder as you continue on, what do you think the most challenging part of her business is? You’re listening to the Matt report, a podcast for the resilient digital business builder, subscribed to the newsletter at 

[00:02:51] port.com/subscribe and follow the podcast on apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts. Better yet. Please share this [00:03:00] episode on social media. We’d love more listeners around here. 

[00:03:02] Kristen: [00:03:02] I am the co-founder of a company called coaching no-code apps, and we essentially help entrepreneurs, business owners, people who already have existing businesses or people who are looking to launch new businesses.

[00:03:15] That are app based. We help them go from their idea stage to having that first version app that they can either launch within a business and help scale their operations or launch as a brand new business. And they don’t need any coding backgrounds, no technical skills in order to do that. 

[00:03:37]Matt: [00:03:37] We chatted in our, pre-interview talking about like how excited I was when I first discovered bubble. And I was like, Hey, coming from the WordPress world, this is in my eyes. I was like, this is going to be like a page builder. I can just drag and drop things around and I could build myself an app and I’ll, I’m going to be a superhero.

[00:03:52] And I was like, wouldn’t it be nice to connect up to a rest API of WordPress or like my podcasting host company [00:04:00] and get this data. I was like, how do I do that with bubble? And I started like researching it. I started doing it myself and I was like, God, no way, am I going to be able to do this by myself?

[00:04:09] And then I found your video and I was like, Oh man, there’s, there’s a lot of stuff to this, no code. And this bubble thing is there, like one thing that really sticks out. In your engagement with customers, that same feeling that they share with you, thought this was going to be easy and Oh my God, I’m going to need your help with this.

[00:04:27] Is there like one or two things that you come across every day with this stuff? 

[00:04:30]Kristen: [00:04:30] Yeah. And I think it’s less about specific technical functions and more so just because when people hear about no code. They think that it’s going to be easy. And I think it gives the impression that you can kind of just come on board, whatever platform it is, and have a custom application up and running within, maybe a few hours or a few days.

[00:04:58]A lot of people, they don’t [00:05:00] realize how complex the thing they’re wanting to build actually is. And so anytime you want to customize anything, you have to actually know how to do that on a platform. And even though you’re not coding there, you still have to understand development, processes, development strategies.

[00:05:19] You have to understand how to. Explain what it is you’re even trying to do, or even ask the right questions. And when you’re coming in without a technical background, I think it’s just kind of like all of a sudden, a surprise of, okay. There’s, there’s no coding, but there are still technical components to this.

[00:05:37]Matt: [00:05:37] When we chatted, you mentioned that one of the things that you do is it’s not even before we even get to like development in the scope of, most listeners of the show might be thinking like we scope out websites, we scope out e-commerce sites. We scope out, small ish web apps, and we get that from the customer for you.

[00:05:55] It’s like, how do I extract this idea? From this person coming to me, [00:06:00] like, how do I get that out of their head and put this on to paper before we even start talking about, the technical requirements, bubble, web flow, like whatever tools you might want to use. How do you pull that idea out of your head?

[00:06:11] Do you have any advice for people who might be in the WordPress world designing and developing for WordPress?

[00:06:17] Kristen: [00:06:17] Yeah, that is a really great question. And I think that’s honestly, half the battle is someone coming in.

[00:06:25] And I think that’s where there’s a lot of disconnect with development agencies, or even if someone is building their app themselves is they have an idea, but they don’t necessarily know how to correctly explain it to someone. They don’t even know what that idea should look like when you’re actually looking at a website or an app or something like that.

[00:06:46] And I think, we personally have a system and a process in place where you can kind of think about every single one of the features or, the pages or whatever you want to have on your app [00:07:00] or your website. And then start going through and scoping out what are the must haves? What are the should have, could have the won’t have, so which version do you need to put these specific features in?

[00:07:15] And I think, and this is in reference to the Moscow matrix where you’re essentially thinking through, okay. What’s a feature or a functionality that a user must have in order to achieve their number one goal or the number one goal that your app or your site is there to help them achieve.

[00:07:32]What, what features aren’t, maybe aren’t necessary, necessary to reach that goal, but are necessary to reach that goal in an ongoing matter, like over and over and over again consistently, how can you make that? Maybe more convenient or maybe more user-friendly or something like that.

[00:07:49] And so you kind of take an entire idea and it doesn’t really matter if someone can explain it in a technical way or not. As long as they know what a user needs to be able to achieve, then [00:08:00] you can start breaking all those features down into. I really like testing phases. Can you accomplish goal number one, can you accomplish goal number two?

[00:08:09] And you can kind of expand like that from there, really? Regardless of which platform or tool that you’re using, 

[00:08:15]Matt: [00:08:15] what what’s the majority that your customers come to you? With in as preparation. And I’ll preface this with my own experience. Quite literally when I used to run a web design agency day to day, people would just have all of the ideas up into their, in their head and that’s all they had and they just come to me and just like vomit this stuff out and all over my desk 

[00:08:36] or it’d be like the literal back of a napkin. Is there, is there a common thing that people come to you in the no-code world with? Is there, is there something really meta is there a no code tool for no code buildings that even exists? Should it exist? How do you like to have this, these ideas delivered to you?

[00:08:52] So you could scope out a project when you were doing projects day to day? 

[00:08:56]Kristen: [00:08:56] Yeah, that’s a, that’s a really good question too, in terms of [00:09:00] trends. I think it spans across the spectrum. You just described some people that are coming in and they know what they want to achieve. But they don’t know how that’s going to be achieved in terms of features.

[00:09:13] Yeah, they might, they might have an end goal, but they just don’t really know what needs to be in place. And then some people come in and, they’ve spent the past year, wireframing things out already hiring designers. And they have everything, but the functionality and I think. The, the ideal is a happy medium where you, what you want to achieve and, generally what you need in order to get there, but, spending a year or more, which I often see, and you maybe have before, too.

[00:09:47] Spending that much time planning something out before you even start building this first version, which you, you technically can build pretty quickly if you, if you know how right. No code tools [00:10:00] are there, you spend all that time planning. There’s just, you can be leaps and bounds ahead of where you, where you are now, if you had just kind of gotten started before going that far.

[00:10:11] So the answer to your first question is just. Happy medium would be ideal, but I do see both. I see both ends of the spectrum in terms of cool. 

[00:10:21] There’s not one specific one that comes to mind, although I think that would be interesting, but I do like to see people putting together kind of like.

[00:10:33] Business model canvases. We have a process when someone’s coming in to work with us, where they fill out a form that kind of translates over to something like that, where you nailed down each main component of, the app or the site or whatever it is you’re building. And that can be helpful in, in kicking off a project.

[00:10:52]Matt: [00:10:52] Yeah. Yeah, I guess people could even come to you. Well, w we’re going to get into your business model these [00:11:00] days. Cause you’re not building apps for a majority of your business. Isn’t about building apps for clients anymore. It’s about training and education and coaching, but I guess with the.

[00:11:11] The way that bubble is maybe people used to come to you with like half made apps and they were just like ice. I sketched us out in bubble. Please help me finish this. Has that ever been something that’s come about? 

[00:11:21]Kristen: [00:11:21] Yes, it certainly has. And it actually still is. And I think it just kind of goes back to people, come in and no code is just it’s associated with DIY.

[00:11:33] And so people come in and they start going down the DIY path and then they get to a point where they actually start thinking about bringing users on board. And they’re like, I don’t think this is, I don’t think this is going to work. I need to take a better approach. And so they take some steps back and then either, bring someone on board, join us, something like that to actually move forward with more concrete steps.

[00:11:56]Matt: [00:11:56] So explain the business model that you [00:12:00] and your co-founder operate under. Again, like I just mentioned a second ago, it used to be building apps for folks. And if it still is, what’s the percentage of that, but you, you shifted to training and coaching coaching. I’d love to understand why you did that and why you made that transition.

[00:12:17] Right. Cause there’s a lot of folks who listen to this who were like, I would rather just teach people how to use WordPress instead of building them, their websites. 

[00:12:23]Kristen: [00:12:23] Yeah, it’s it was an interesting transition from us. And right now we’re not doing any development ourselves, so we’re not taking on any outsource type projects.

[00:12:35] We’re just training and coaching. We have some standalone courses and training, but we also have a training. It’s like a mentorship program where we work directly with these entrepreneurs and they’re the ones building their apps, we’re coaching and training them. And. The, there are a lot of reasons why we switched to doing that.

[00:12:56] But first and foremost, it just came down to [00:13:00] the client’s results, both in the immediate and in the longterm. We were looking at app development and with no code tools, there’s so much more availability now for people to launch their own apps. But it’s, it’s certainly not free. And so when people are coming in and they’re outsourcing to no code app development agencies or freelancers, it’s still a big investment.

[00:13:27] And we kept seeing people where they would have the first version of their apps in hand, but there’s been no testing on their side. No, no initial test users brought on because. They don’t have, they don’t have the app yet. And so they can’t do that during development, they get the app. And then, as soon as you start testing your first version, you have immediate iterations.

[00:13:51]Like you bring one user onboard and you’re already going to have things to change. And so that would start happening and then they, [00:14:00] they still can’t manage their apps, even though it’s built on no code, no code platform potentially. And so it kind of felt like we were. Handcuffing people to us in a way by giving them an app, but then them having not really any idea of what to do with it from there.

[00:14:19] And so we decided to start enabling people to build their own apps so that they could have more control both in the immediate, because, going back to the question you had asked about taking an idea out of someone’s head and actually building what they were envisioning. It’s so hard. It’s so hard to do that.

[00:14:41] And, even with the best intentions and no matter how hard you try, there’s still going to be some disconnect between what was living in their head and then what they see in front of their face, at the end. And so we started training people to build their own apps, so they can number one. Get their own processes out of their mind and build them exactly how they [00:15:00] wanted and then actually be able to do something with the app afterwards on their own really quickly with a lot of flexibility, a lot of control, if they want to hire junior developers to bring them in house, they can, but they still have the control and they have options.

[00:15:14] And I think that’s the most important thing. And the, the results in terms of how many people were actually launching their apps. And bringing people onto their apps, bringing users on, and then growing their apps that went way up. And that’s why we made the full transition. 

[00:15:30]Matt: [00:15:30] I would also probably imagine that as when you were doing that, when you were building apps for folks, we’ll just say you were an agency, right?

[00:15:37] You were just, you were running that agency model customer came to you. They had a problem. They wanted you to solve it. They probably put you up against a bunch of other agencies and RFPs. There’s all that BS of an agency you just don’t want to deal with in the long run. And then it’s also like expectations.

[00:15:54] I’d imagine that. Customers with these apps probably are, are. [00:16:00] Are trying to monetize this app. I’m just guessing here, but at least for those customers that want to, as an app, maybe they thought well, look what I built in bubble. It took me like a weekend. So I should only have to pay somebody, a few more weekends to finish it.

[00:16:16] And the. The expectation was we’re probably way lopsided, which isn’t different. So, which is not so different to the WordPress world for customers that used to knock on our door. And they were like, well, I bought a $50 theme from ThemeForest. My website is only, only, you only need to do that 10%, that 10% should just be a few hundred bucks.

[00:16:33] Right. Did you, is that an experience that you saw and you just really wanted to get away from? 

[00:16:37]Kristen: [00:16:37] It’s absolutely something we experience. I think people. They don’t know how development works when they’re, when they’re first stepping into this space, they don’t, they don’t know what goes on behind the scenes.

[00:16:51] They don’t know how to even really ask for, they don’t know how to ask about quality. They don’t know how [00:17:00] to expect or set the right expectations around quality or cost or timeframe. None of it, because they’re so disconnected from the processes that are actually happening. And so. Usually what happens is they just read something somewhere.

[00:17:15] They see someone’s pricing and then maybe they think that’s the norm. Like you said, they, buy a $50 template and they think, okay, well this is easy. This should be a really quick fix, but there’s just, like with any, anything with any market, any type of service, there’s so much variation.

[00:17:34] And so, yeah. Having. Have in, in making this transition that we have and having training versus development services, it also has allowed us to kind of. Package up what we’re offering, which also helps with pricing structure. There’s, we don’t have this long list of services that we [00:18:00] offer or, it’s not like we’ll build this for this much, this, for this much of this, for this much where it’s just like a bunch of numbers out there.

[00:18:06] It’s you’re going to learn how to do this one specific thing. So you can achieve this one specific result. And it’s, it’s a lot easier to. Price that as well, without so much variation, too, if that makes sense. 

[00:18:18]Matt: [00:18:18] , that was actually a perfect segue into my next question is cause you can really start to maximize and optimize your internal process to serve these clients so often.

[00:18:27] And I am fully guilty of this and, and maybe you are too. When I started out in my agency. I would just say yes to everything. Of course I can do that. And it was like, yes, give me the money and I will build it for you. I don’t care what you’re asking for. I’ll do it. And then you start finding, as time marches on you start to find more technical clients or, or, or bigger budget clients.

[00:18:49] And then suddenly you find yourself like implementing an intranet in a university, and then there’s all of these things you’ve never experienced, never thought of. And you’re like, Oh my God, I’m. Over my [00:19:00] head in this project. And I only priced it for 5,000 bucks. Right? So in your world, you can kind of remove that stress of, I don’t know, an insurance, a mega insurance agency comes to you and they’re like, Hey, we want to build an app using bubble and you can say, perfect.

[00:19:17] I’ve got this way that I train and educate people. You don’t need to know. Maybe SOC compliance and all of this stuff that goes into that sector of insurance, because you’re just training them on how to launch this thing. You don’t have to be responsible maybe at the end of the day of how they secure data and all of this stuff.

[00:19:36] Am I getting that fairly accurate? 

[00:19:39]Kristen: [00:19:39] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s. It is when the, when the client is the one who’s building their apps and these different responsibilities are, are on their shoulders because we are helping them to create their app. But you can, you can be coming from lots of different [00:20:00] industries and you might have different regulations of your own that we have.

[00:20:05] No experience with, but as long as you know what they are, and if you’re building an app that relates to them, you probably should, then, you can handle those aspects and. I think it makes it so much easier and so much better for the client too, because you don’t need to, as a client, you don’t need to find someone who does know all of these really niche things specific to your industry, which, makes your options just really narrow.

[00:20:35] And so I think you, you definitely hit that on the head there. 

[00:20:39]Matt: [00:20:39] I’m redoing my bathroom or I’m planning on having my bathrooms. We’d done in my house and I’m out there getting quotes and I’m like every other web person who’s ever come to us and be like, well, I just watched this on YouTube.

[00:20:48] This should be easy. I’m just looking at everything I don’t know about this stuff. And I’m just looking at the quotes that are coming through. I’m like, how did we get to 40. A thousand dollars when I’m looking at this guy on [00:21:00] YouTube, who did it in a half an hour, you know what I’m like? What’s the difference.

[00:21:03]Let’s, let’s I open a pry, opened the business a little bit, your business. That is what have you learned since you first made the pivot to let’s call it purely education and coaching from, the days of past where you’re doing the consulting work from where you started education, maybe like price points.

[00:21:21] What have you learned in that? Like how have you gotten better at that? How have you maximized that whole process for the business? 

[00:21:27]Kristen: [00:21:27] Hmm. That’s interesting too. I, I think the, one of the ways that we’ve looked at it is, what’s involved in the training in terms of the outcome. So. When you’re doing training, yes, you can be offering hourly services, but we’re offering more of a package service.

[00:21:48] And so when you’re looking at training and you’re not charging by the hour, it’s helpful to look at the, the outcome that you are enabling your clients to achieve. So what’s the result [00:22:00] and what’s the general value of that result. And so we can. You can have standalone training, training, videos, training, tutorials, courses, things like that, and the client’s outcome or the student’s outcome is going to be better than if they are just watching free tutorials.

[00:22:20] Ideally, it’s going to be better than if they’re doing something in a complete DIY way. But it’s not going to be as good as if you’re working hands-on with them. And so. Pricing that obviously lower than if you’re working hands on with them is a good starting point, but that’s really how I’ve looked at it.

[00:22:41] And then, when we first launched our, our program where we’re working with our clients directly, it’s, we learned so much after that. And there were so many iterations with that, that. Initially, it’s like you look at the result that you’re intending to help a client [00:23:00] achieve. You have to go through a first round of testing, like a beta round, just like you would with your app or a website or whatever it is you’re doing.

[00:23:07] And then you have to look at the results from there and then you add on iterations and you see, okay, do those enhance the results? And what value can I attach with that? And that’s kind of what we’ve done over time is just, how can we make this better? And now what is that worth? And what’s the value that’s tied with that.

[00:23:25]Matt: [00:23:25] Is there one thing you’ve experienced that you remove from the offering of today that maybe you started with like unlimited revisions and then you realize, Oh God, this is the worst idea ever, because they never stopped asking us about these iterations or revisions. Is there one thing like that you’ve removed.

[00:23:40]Kristen: [00:23:40] Not like that. Not in the sense that there was one thing that we just offered way too much of, we have removed at time because we realized that more is not. Better in, in all situations more is not always better. And so I think [00:24:00] when you are helping a client or creating training, instinctually instinctively, you just want to add more and more and more and try to pack it with value, but it can end up just kind of muddying things and confusing people.

[00:24:16] And again, going back to the outcomes, they just. It’s harder for them to get there. And so a lot of the changes we’ve made is just stripping it back, removing the noise, taking away the things that aren’t like, they, they look like good additions and they sound like good additions, but they aren’t really serving a solid purpose.

[00:24:35] And so we just stripped things back so that they can take the simplest path forward and just achieve the, the easiest outcome. 

[00:24:44]Matt: [00:24:44] I think one of the most challenging things of a coaching business or consulting business and especially when you start to intermingle I dunno what I’ll call digital deliverables.

[00:24:55] Like you’re delivering, you’re probably reviewing somebody’s like bubble account or [00:25:00] whatever other apps that you, that you consult with. So you’re doing that. You’re you’re, you’re probably helping them scope. These projects out, but then there’s the coaching aspect? Like the mindset, like how do we pull these ideas out?

[00:25:10] I think one of the hardest things in these types of businesses is staying connected to a customer. And keeping them engaged, especially a student, if somebody’s here and they’re a student trying to learn, it’s like keeping them going, keeping them engaged. How do you do that? Like how do you keep people going in let’s say a coaching program, like your most entry-level customer who might flake off and be like, Oh God, this whole thing isn’t really, for me, like, how do you keep them going?

[00:25:37] Zoom calls circle apps. What do you do to keep them connected? 

[00:25:40]Kristen: [00:25:40] We do, we do a lot of things because that’s such a common thing you see, because no matter how motivated someone is, everybody’s a human. And so everybody’s going to have other things going on in life and, and that pull them away. And a lot of it is just communication.

[00:26:00] [00:25:59] So constantly staying in touch with people. I think that’s one of the biggest things that we learned is that. When someone sets out to launch an app or, or launch a site or a business or anything there, no matter how excited they are about it, they’re going to have a hard time getting there by their own self motivation and self-will, and no matter if they invest in doing it, no matter if they set aside the time, it’s just hard to do.

[00:26:29] And so. Staying in constant communication with them, whether that be in, in groups or an email or on calls, which we do all of tracking them, like literally tracking how they’re doing, how active they are, which milestones they’re achieving. We do that, holding them accountable, yes, they’re coming to you and they’re paying you for your help, but we don’t see it as them just.

[00:26:57] Paying us to help them with their app. We see it as [00:27:00] them also coming to us to be held accountable and to have someone there saying, Hey, you’re not making enough progress. You need, you need to take this step or you need to do this thing by the end of tomorrow or something like that. So I think just setting expectations, setting boundaries, and then committing to those yourself helps the client commit as well.

[00:27:20]Matt: [00:27:20] What tools do you focus on with the coaching? And the training side of the business, is it, is it just bubble? Will you take anyone that has a no-code tool or, or is that how you found your way to hyper-focus on a customer, but also a way for you to scale the business in the future? Like maybe you don’t do web flow now, but in the future, you’ll have a web flow module.

[00:27:39] I’m simplifying it, but is that how you look at it and what are the tools that you’ve primarily primarily focused on? 

[00:27:45]Kristen: [00:27:45] So we, we use bubble at the hub of everyone’s app. So anyone who is working with us is using bubble. Now they might be adding on other tools and other apps. On top of that, but the [00:28:00] hub of their app lives on bubble.

[00:28:02] And the way we look at it is less. So which tools should we teach and more. So which existing tools are the best fit for the types of apps our clients are building. And so I don’t see us necessarily adding on just more platforms, just for the sake of having more platforms. If there was at some point a better platform for the types of apps our clients were building, then we could potentially switch over to another platform, but we’ve chosen bubble just because it’s, it’s such a powerful platform and there are so many capabilities on it and it really serves our clients really well.

[00:28:43]Matt: [00:28:43] What are those types those most popular types of apps that folks build people in the WordPress space might be, they’re not used to hearing about bubble or what public can achieve. What are the handful of most popular apps that people build with it? 

[00:28:55]Kristen: [00:28:55] There’s a lot of different types of apps.

[00:28:57]You’ll see marketplace [00:29:00] apps dashboards, internal systems, any. Any, any type of app, really? I think less so specific on the type of app. We see people who are wanting to be able to really customize what they’re, what they’re building. And that’s one of the things that bubble is really great for.

[00:29:22] It does have a higher learning curve, but the higher learning curve is there because the platform gives you so much power. You, you can. Build your own database. You can build your own front end. You can build your own logic. So when people are wanting something that is not cookie cutter, that’s not template and that’s not so out of the box.

[00:29:42] And they just want to create something that is really specific to their own needs, to their own market, their own situation. That’s where we see people coming, coming to bubble. Even if the, the app itself is. Pretty simple. Even if it’s just a really [00:30:00] simple marketplace app, for example, it’s the customization and the capabilities that it gives you that we see as being one of the really big benefits and draws.

[00:30:09]Matt: [00:30:09] Bubble seems to me like it’s like, it’s like the most note, it’s the most code, no code tool that’s out there because from my experiences, like I started looking at what I could do with bubble as a hoop, what is a little bit difficult for me. And then I found things like glide apps when it’s Hey.

[00:30:25] Make an app from a spreadsheet. And I’m like, ah, this is more my speed. Like these are some gotchas out there in the, in the no code world. Right. These things that look super easy, even easier than bubble. And you’re like, Oh, this is very limited to what I can achieve with or achieve with. 

[00:30:39]Kristen: [00:30:39] Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s exactly it.

[00:30:41]Matt: [00:30:41] I want to talk a little bit about like marketing the business and standing out. I found you through, through YouTube where you put out a lot of free content and it’s not just like short stuff. You have some long form content here.

[00:30:54]And you’re putting a lot of effort into it. Is YouTube the best channel for you to market in and find [00:31:00] people to funnel into the business. 

[00:31:01]Kristen: [00:31:01] We like using YouTube. We have various places where people are coming in. People are finding us. We like YouTube because it’s so fitting with what we do.

[00:31:14] It’s so visual. Video is just great for that. We also. I just like video. I like connecting with people in that way. I use YouTube a lot and I just think video is such an excellent marketing tool. And so it’s something that we’ve put a lot of time into and, and built up and it’s worked well for us.

[00:31:36]Matt: [00:31:36] Your most popular video the indepth bubble.io tutorial, how to build any type of app, 183,000 views published two years ago. Some might say, wait, you’re giving away the content that you that you’d otherwise be coaching somebody to do. Obviously I know the obvious answer to that, but how do you set.

[00:31:56] How do you get your mind around free content? Like how do [00:32:00] you sit with your partner and say, here’s what we’ll do for free? And here’s the content we’ll put out in only the coaching course. Let’s say 

[00:32:07]Kristen: [00:32:07] there’s, there’s not one specific process that we have for that. I think our mindset has always just kind of been, what’s going to help people and.

[00:32:20] There are always, always going to be people who are only ever going to use the YouTube content and that’s it. And if the YouTube content is there and it’s helping them more so than if they were just to kind of click around and try to figure it out themselves, then that’s, that’s great. There will always always be people who still want to pay for a more hands-on experience.

[00:32:43] No matter how much free content you put out. Like there, there are just people who will always do that. Even if you put, 99% of your content out there for free, there’s still going to be people who want to pay to work with you. And if you can provide someone value with your free content, and [00:33:00] they’re the type of person who do want that a more in depth experience or that more hands-on experience.

[00:33:06] And if they find even a little bit of value from some of your free content, Then who are they going to ask when they need that higher level experience? So they’re going to come to the person who has helped them initially. 

[00:33:17]Matt: [00:33:17] Yeah. And so it’s so hard for people that. Might be in your position or just starting out in your position and they’re starting to think, okay, maybe I can get into coaching and digital downloads.

[00:33:28] And then you sort of wrestle with, do I put this content out for free? Do I have it paid? And then largely it’s put it out for free because anyone that you’re really trying, like anyone who. You’re wrestling with, so they just pay you a dollar to learn something. You don’t want them as clients. You want the client to say, saw what you did.

[00:33:50] That was amazing. I never want to go down that path, just take this money and teach them, how to do it right. Or how to put this together, give me a structure around this stuff. And [00:34:00] those are going to be your best glance, which I’m assuming you’ve found, over the course of this time. 

[00:34:04]Kristen: [00:34:04] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:34:06] It’s people, they see you doing it. So that builds trust with them and that they know that you know how to achieve what they want, but if they just want an easier path to get there versus trying to do it on their own, then yeah. It’s an easy way for them just to say, Hey, I saw you did it. Can you help me do it?

[00:34:27] And yeah, those are great clients for sure. 

[00:34:31]Matt: [00:34:31] One of the final questions here. The WordPress world loves WordPress because it’s open source because we can kind of control it. We can move it around. We can put it on any web hosts. We’re not locked into anything. I’m curious if your clients have. Any take on the ownership of committing to two bubble, or if you have any thoughts on sort of that open source take on ownership and portability, do your clients, or number one, do you have any concerns [00:35:00] about that with the no-code and bubble world and into your clients?

[00:35:02] Have any concerns like that? Either? 

[00:35:04]Kristen: [00:35:04] That’s a good question. And yes, there are clients and just people in general. People actually all the time who asked about it. I think it’s a thing that just comes up constantly. And it’s a big fear that people have. And I think it just stems from them. It’s like you’re making a commitment to build your thing on a platform and well, what if that platform goes away or what if it changes somehow, then what’s going to happen?

[00:35:35] I don’t personally have concerns about it because. Yes. If you’re, if you’re building an app on bubble, any platform where you don’t have the source code and that goes away, then you, you have to do something. But it’s just, I just think it’s so, you’re not, [00:36:00] you’re not stuck. You have somewhere to go. You, you already have your app idea.

[00:36:04] You already have. Your app and most platforms they’re going to let you, they’re probably going to help you if, if something happened to them. So let’s say that bubble went out of business. Well, they’ve already made the commitment that they would release the source code. At least that’s what it says in their documentation.

[00:36:24] They would release the source code to all of their users so that they could go somewhere else and host their apps. And with bubble specifically, You you’re paying for the convenience of the platform and you still own your data. You can still monetize the app. However you want it. It’s still your app.

[00:36:44] You’re just paying for the convenience. And so the way I look at it is if you are scared that something is going to happen to the platform and you don’t have access to your source code and you, and you don’t use the platform because of that. What are you going to do [00:37:00] otherwise? Are you going to outsource to traditional development agencies?

[00:37:05] Are you going to find some other way to build it? And the difficulty of doing that, is that going to hold you back from building the app at all? And I think that’s what a lot of people don’t realize is that yeah, you’re, you’re building something on top of a platform. But you’re actually able to build and launch an app and a business really, really easily, relatively speaking because of it.

[00:37:29] And so look at the pros and cons like, look what you’re actually gaining from this. And if something happens again, you, you have options. I think if you get to the point where you have this, this app, you have users, something happens. You need to change platforms. If you’re at the point where you do have your users.

[00:37:50] Like your, your business has scaled and look thinking forward to the potential of something like that happening. It seems like a really massive problem, [00:38:00] but every problem that could happen seems really big until you’re there and something has happened and you just solve it. You just do the thing you need to do.

[00:38:09] You take the next step. And a week later, a month later, a year later, It’s that problem is so minuscule now that that’s kind of how I see it. 

[00:38:18]Matt: [00:38:18] Have you ever had to deal with and WordPress agency folks or freelancers, whatever, and know the problematic WordPress web hosts, where they like, they know the website’s always going to go down and their customers are going to call them.

[00:38:31] How, how, how has the reliability of bubble been. From you as somebody who used to do the consulting or the actual development work, is anyone ever knocked on your door? Hey, my apps running slow and you’re like, I can’t really do anything. It’s just bubble. Right? Has that ever happened to you and how have you navigated that?

[00:38:45]Kristen: [00:38:45] Yeah. The bubble, the bubble of team has always seemed to be very open in their forum and emails and things happen. It’s usually less, so bubble [00:39:00] related it’s often has to do with just, AWS, something happens. And so that affects bubble or, or something like that. And, I just think that no matter what platform you use there.

[00:39:12] There can always be issues. With bubble I’ve at least seen that they’re very forthcoming and vocal and quick to fix things when they do happen. And they also are improving and expanding the platform in a lot of ways. And they’re just really communicative. And I think that’s one of the benefits is that it’s not like.

[00:39:36] A silent platform, or it’s not like a platform with no face or a voice behind it. You know who the founders are, you see their names in the forum, you see, and you see all of this. And so I do think it builds a sense of trust. And my experience has had been positive, even when things do happen. 

[00:39:55] Matt: [00:39:55] Awesome stuff. Kristen, Young’s coaching, no code apps.com. Go to the [00:40:00] coaching. No-code apps.com. Click on the start, my free training up at the top. You can just dive right into learning some bubble. Goodness. If you’re listening, if you’re a WordPress developer out there an agency, there’s nothing wrong with complimenting your skillset with this no-code stuff.

[00:40:15] I’ve certainly Dove in, got a little scared, back out a little bit, go to as far as setting up an air table. And I was like, okay, I’m feeling good. I’m feeling good. But check it out. Coaching, no code apps.com Kristen, anywhere else, folks can find you to say thanks. 

[00:40:29]Kristen: [00:40:29] No, that’s it just had to, yeah.

[00:40:31] Coaching no-code apps.com and you can reach us there. 

[00:40:34] Matt: [00:40:34] Awesome stuff. Everyone else, Matt report.com. airport.com/subscribe. To join the mailing list. Don’t forget to check out the WP minute.com podcast for all of your WordPress news in under five minutes. See you in the next episode.

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